Anti-glorantha rant to moongose.

[cerebro]

We need a proper fantasy setting. I have not played glorantha. But everything I see from it,does not help. Ducks? really?. Dragon friends? thats a cult?.

I have always felt that glorantha and myths is what holds back Runequest. A great system I'm in love with. If you want to get new players they need to build a bridge from D&D they can cross. You do that by putting good things in the other side of that bridge.Cool things.Thats what Paizo did. Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlACgYHtWCI

This is how I see fights in Runequest. Characters that can cast magic and fight. Rich combat detailed. Here is a list of ideas:

- Art is the key to getting players in the mood. You already got the system, now get some decent art,for classes. There are many super talented amateur artist out there who would make the art free if you publish them. Do a internet contest,you have nothing to loose.

-Get rid of the corny stuff!. Be cool!.

-We have a loyal very creative fanbase,lets use them. What they need if a official format for adventure making, encounters and things like that.Why?. Adventures are the key to getting new people to GM and introduce their game group to Runequest. But not many people will try to make an adventure of a game they don't know. Lets make the transition easy.
any way, lets make this mother... main stream!

 

[taxboy]

Actually pretty much disagree with most of what you said - the setting and its non-D & D quirks (not to mention long history) is a big part of the pull of Runequest 2. the reason i love RQ2 is that it is NOT D & D

Do agree around adventures though, can never have too many of these.

You can play the rules in any setting yuo want already, what does a generic setting add....

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

-Get rid of the corny stuff!. Be cool!

Problem is, one man's corn is another man's cool.

 

[JonGeere]

We need a proper fantasy setting. I have not played glorantha. But everything I see from it,does not help. Ducks? really?. Dragon friends? thats a cult?.

Best not play in Real World or on it's analogies. You've got Duck Billed Platypus, Creatures that carry internal bags of water, cyanide eating microbes and other such preposterous and impossible animals. You've got all those cults that worship all kinds of strange stuff (cults that sacrifice people to the Sun Gods, Bankers who would sell their country and souls for mammon, the Tea Party - or is that something to do with Monkeys in a zoo?).

Are you saying Glorantha is too weird, or not weird enough?

 

[Dan True]

We need a proper fantasy setting. I have not played glorantha. But everything I see from it,does not help. Ducks? really?. Dragon friends? thats a cult?.

Then play a different setting. Make your own or use Elric. I don't know either Glorantha, or Elric very well, I play in my own dark age/iron age inspired setting. Actually I think the Mongoose has been very god at not forcing Glorantha on RQ players. For example the elves and dwarves in the core rulebook are generic elves and dwarves, not Gloranthan. The parts that are central to glorantha, rules and cults fx, are in their own chapters and can easily be ignored.

- Art is the key to getting players in the mood. You already got the system, now get some decent art,for classes. There are many super talented amateur artist out there who would make the art free if you publish them. Do a internet contest,you have nothing to loose.

Completely agree here. When I first got the book I was stunned as to how well written is was, and how much material was covered quickly, simply and concisely. Compared to a lot of the D&D 3.5 sourcebooks (which have a tendency to be filled with 15% could-have-eyeballed-it-myself-in-10-seconds monsters, 10% feats that no one will ever choose, 10% spells that only extremely non-imaginative wizards will ever use a spell slot on and so on) RQ book are extremely well written.
But the artwork really does lack behind. Some of the artwork is okay, other parts of it are simply not of a high enough quality to be included in such a book. It being black-and-white sometimes help, but I really do miss some of the beautiful color drawings of adventurers, monster and dungeons that were in the core d&d books.
I know that Mongoose runs on an entirely different budget than Wizards, so it might not be possible without the book prices climbing. But I think artwork (and color!) would be a way of getting a larger player base - a book with color pictures and nicely done page backgrounds just looks more professional than one without, even if what is written is crap compared to the black-and-white book.

-Get rid of the corny stuff!. Be cool!.

Don't really know what you think is corny, so no comment here.

-We have a loyal very creative fanbase,lets use them. What they need if a official format for adventure making, encounters and things like that.Why?. Adventures are the key to getting new people to GM and introduce their game group to Runequest. But not many people will try to make an adventure of a game they don't know. Lets make the transition easy.
any way, lets make this mother... main stream!

Again I agree. A book comparable to "Dungeons Masters Guide" would really be beneficial. I have just recently made the transition from d&d to rq, and I love the system. However I have a hard time finding out essential information, like how I should model classical traps, how strong foes I should pitch them against and so on. Introducing a book containing some magic items, traps, monster tactics (and ratings), some dungeon ideas/building blocks, some good "adventure ideas" to get beginners started and so on, would greatly help people make the transition WITHOUT forcing "classical rq players" to play a too d&d-y game. They can just refrain from buying it.

The alternative is that the players keep buying/using the better d&d books and then converting the material. But why, when you could earn money on doing it for them (and we could save time).

- Dan

 

[master of reality]

Any company publishing a role-playing game called "RuneQuest" must offer Glorantha as a possible setting. Glorantha was the original setting when RuneQuest was first published. Any attempt to publish RuneQuest without Glorantha (and that includes ducks) would be subject to extreme criticism by long-time RuneQuest fans. As it is, Mongoose already took a risk by choosing Second Age Glorantha instead of the traditional Third Age.
I like Glorantha, but I can certainly see how others would have trouble getting into the setting. It is a little weird even by fantasy standards.
Fortunately, Mongoose made a valiant attempt to present their version of RuneQuest as a generic system without completely abandoning Glorantha. A glance at the RuneQuest page shows several alternative settings to Glorantha: Deus Vult, Vikings, Elric, and Wraith Recon. Hawkmoon and Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar have disappeared from the list of settings offered, but I suspect that they will return.
I agree that eventually Mongoose should publish a more D&D type pseudo-European medieval setting, if for no other reason than to attract the the D&D crowd. I suspect that once Mongoose has published enough Glorantha and Elric stuff to flesh out those worlds, they'll look into publishing a more traditional Tolkenesque, pseudo-European medieval setting.
I for one, would like to at least see a generic setting book for Conan's Hyboria. Apparently, licensing agreements prevent Mongoose from publishing a RuneQuest version of Conan, but maybe they can publish a sourcebook without reference to any system. Well, one can dream.

 

[ThatGuy]

While I can hear the "more D&D" calls, and respect them, I think with just a little bit of effort it is easy to bridge a middle ground. I for one think Glorantha is glorious and seeing as how this is the ONLY place that feeds that world, feel it should continue to do so. There are plenty of generic seeds elsewhere.

I should also say I was never a huge D&Der, although I do like GURPs a bit more...but mostly because it has a closer feel to RQ, and GURPs is (arguably) the most versatile system out there in the sense it can be applied to almost any genre (fantasy, Sci-Fi, action, whatever).

Below I have a link to an RPOL game I'm GMing. It is an earth equivalent, low magic fantasy setting (some of you may have seen my post a while back). I have adjusted Myths (a sticking point I have seen singled out) to a simple series of tests or rites, for advancement within a cult (PS if you don't like the word Cult, you can always call them religions. I like cults.). There are lots of heroic abilities- because I think they allow for cool specialization, and some house rules. The last one I'm working on are spell fumble rules/table.

http://rpol.net/game.cgi?gi=44090&date=1291487543

I just feel that with a bit of tweaking, you can make RQ2 work however you want. The call for new scenarios is valid, but with all of the games out there, there I think there is enough food for plot hooks that can make for a great game. :wink:

 

[cerebro]

Are you saying Glorantha is too weird, or not weird enough?

I'm saying is corny,and low sales are backing me,read in the state.

 

[Dan True]

I just feel that with a bit of tweaking, you can make RQ2 work however you want. The call for new scenarios is valid, but with all of the games out there, there I think there is enough food for plot hooks that can make for a great game. :wink:

Yep, totally agree - I don't see the need for actually publishing any d&d-ish setting. I mean, all the building blocks for a classical generic fantasy setting are there in RQ. You have stats for all the classical races and a model for religions (cults). All the background material are in other games' books, and one can just convert stats when it is necessary.

Although I would LOVE to see an Eberron book from Mongoose, but I know it is probably never gonna be possible with legal restrictions. But even a world as far-removed from Glorantha as Eberron can easily be converted to RQ. The largest problem is d&d spell effects to RQ-spells.

However, I can only stress that the most necessary thing for a d&d-ish game is traps, classic monsters and so on. Especially traps, which I have so far seen nothing of in any RQ book.

Are you saying Glorantha is too weird, or not weird enough?

I'm saying is corny,and low sales are backing me,read in the state.

Well, Glorantha is represented so little in the core rulebook that I don't think it has anything at all to do with the number of sales. I didn't at any point in reading the core book think "this book is trying to force me to use Glorantha" or anything similar.
Reason for RQs low number of players compared to d&d is manyfold, not because of Glorantha.

- Dan

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

I for one think Glorantha is glorious and seeing as how this is the ONLY place that feeds that world, feel it should continue to do so.

While I'm pro-Glorantha, I have to point out that Issaries/Moon Design's HeroQuest line also supports it. Or were you refering to Second Age material?

 

[cerebro]

Actually pretty much disagree with most of what you said - the setting and its non-D & D quirks (not to mention long history) is a big part of the pull of Runequest 2. the reason i love RQ2 is that it is NOT D & D

Do agree around adventures though, can never have too many of these.

You can play the rules in any setting yuo want already, what does a generic setting add....

I agree that they HAD to make Glorantha. Even if they knew it would not sell,to satisfy the purist. How many companies need to bankrupt to keep this guys happy?. I don't know .

Any way. With this system, me as a Champions and many Rpg systems player where you have to make your own pc, can see endless characters concepts. But a D&D player will not. Not at first glance, which is what you will get.One try. Then they will marked it as either too complicated or lame.

Can I make my own world?. Sure,but isn't that the publishers job?. People don't want to make new worlds. And those who do, you guys, won't change game systems. This guys here are not your target. You already have them. For many years they have known the system is great. Now let help the others see that too.

In others Rpgs you can fill a specific role,from a typical fantasy party. Rogue, fighter,wizard,etc. The beauty of runequest is you can make better characters. Character that can do anything. I find this great. Here you can play,right of the bat, a armor wearing,spell throwing, sneaky ,sword wielding character.

What is good for us veterans,is terrible for first timers. More if they come from better systems in that regard. Theres a reason why D&D is the leader. Is easy to start. When you get a fighter, you start as a very basic character. You get more skills and choices as you get more "exp". The monsters you fight are also more basic. So you have time to learn the game.

In runequest I will have you choosing from 15 combat moves the first time you hit a character. And as much as I love that...you see my point right?.

 

[Loz]

I'm saying is corny,and low sales are backing me,read in the state.

How much of Glorantha have you read, as opposed to just heard about? Ducks always draw a lot of flak, but its difficult to describe Glorantha as 'corny'. Eclectic, certainly, but also wholly original and it has swathes of dark and gritty in amongst the wild and wacky.

As for low sales... Glorantha's never been a huge seller but its been a consistent one. Its also been going for more than 40 years, which is no mean feat, and due, in part, to how different it is is to more conventional fantasy settings.

There's room for all kinds of RQ fantasy settings, but Glorantha is an intrinsic part of its history and rightly so. However, we've made the RQII rules flexible enough to allow you to apply them to whatever flavour of fantasy you prefer.

 

[Dan True]

Can I make my own world?. Sure,but isn't that the publishers job?. People don't want to make new worlds. And those who do, you guys, won't change game systems. This guys here are not your target. You already have them. For many years they have known the system is great. Now let help the others see that too.

My point is that you don't have to make your own world. If you wanna use Greyhawk in RQ, then use the greyhawk sourcebooks. The only thing from them you cannot use is stats and spells, and they can usually be converted quite quckly. And again, there ARE other settings than Glorantha for RQ, Elric, Lankhmar and Deus Vult.

- Dan

 

[cerebro]

Dan . I'm currently playing in Ancient Rome,I can make a world from scratch.But I have to work. I rather pay some money to mongoose for a well made official setting. A setting that players can read about,by buying the same book so we can all be on the same page. And well made adventures. With a modern look like the ones that Mongoose do for Conan. Those are amazing.

Who here play any other rpg?. I play many. Including many of the new ones. I'm sensing many people here only play old games or have not tried D&D since the 80's.
[/quote]

 

[Dan True]

Dan . I'm currently playing in Ancient Rome,I can make a world from scratch.But I have to work. I rather pay some money to mongoose for a well made official setting. A setting that players can read about,by buying the same book so we can all be on the same page.

But that is my point - You can buy a Greyhawk/Faerun book and so can your players, and all you have to do is say "read this, but ignore all stats and numbers". Most of the books about settings are pure text anyway...
Ideally I can see your point, but compared to how many other things RQ could use (and how small a company it actually is compared to Wizards) I would personally rather have they spend their time making those, instead of just another run-of-the-mill fantasy world.

But I can see your point, you hope that support of a generic fantasy world would get more players to RQ. I actually don't think it would do much, but of course I can be wrong .. I'm no market analyser.

- Dan

 

[cerebro]

I'm saying is corny,and low sales are backing me,read in the state.

How much of Glorantha have you read, as opposed to just heard about? Ducks always draw a lot of flak, but its difficult to describe Glorantha as 'corny'. Eclectic, certainly, but also wholly original and it has swathes of dark and gritty in amongst the wild and wacky.

As for low sales... Glorantha's never been a huge seller but its been a consistent one. Its also been going for more than 40 years, which is no mean feat, and due, in part, to how different it is is to more conventional fantasy settings.

There's room for all kinds of RQ fantasy settings, but Glorantha is an intrinsic part of its history and rightly so. However, we've made the RQII rules flexible enough to allow you to apply them to whatever flavour of fantasy you prefer.

I have read nothing, and I already hate it. Thats my point,Loz. How many people,like me who own more than 50 books on different rpgs, feel the same?. All monsters from Glorantha that are in the monster coliseum have that corny feeling Chonchon, Fachan,Grotaron,Ducks(Except Broos,Bolos and Dragonewts,those are very cool). Illithids vs Walktapus, just compare those two. Heres an illithid:

@Dan: Eberron is great setting. But adapting monster "easily" is a job I will not do,because of balance issues. I rather pay,for a play tested one. And thats what I'm saying.

The good thing is that with this rules we can make a great setting. A very cool "modern fantasy" one.

 

[cerebro]

But I can see your point, you hope that support of a generic fantasy world would get more players to RQ. I actually don't think it would do much, but of course I can be wrong .. I'm no market analyser.

- Dan

Cool,that is my point. What would you want to see from RQ2?.

 

[Dan True]

But I can see your point, you hope that support of a generic fantasy world would get more players to RQ. I actually don't think it would do much, but of course I can be wrong .. I'm no market analyser.

- Dan

Cool,that is my point. What would you want to see from RQ2?.

Well, a lot of the support material that d&d has tons of and which is hard to make oneself. If you think of what the d&d 3.5 DM's Guide has, I'd like something like that: traps, magic items, dungeon "building block" (like stats for certain building materials), perhaps some more monsters and all that. It's not that I can't make it myself, but especially traps are hard not to make too hard/easy.

And a lot more published adventures/adventures chains/campaigns/maybe a megadungeon. I usually don't use published adventures, but I love them for inspirations. I used them a lot for Dark Heresy.

- Dan

 

[cerebro]

From Warhammer 40,000k?...Good luck with that. I played harlock legacy a month ago and loved the story. Hated the system.Too many tables and things that made your PC useless.

So what you are looking for is an Aventure Maker or QuestMaker book. I would buy that too. And I think actually all of us would,since making adventures seems part of the Runequest exp. Hmmm...something good came out of this rant.

 

[daxos232]

When I first got into MRQ2 I knew very little about the Glorantha setting, and my initial attempts were discouraging and confusing. Myths and histories seemed to contradict one another, and the seeting has such depth its like reading a great religous work, like the Bible or the Bhagavad Gita (I may not have spelled that right)

I kept at it because its bronze age setting intrigued me and many of the cultures reminded me of real world ancient counterparts. I am a big ancient history fan so I liked how it was different from typical settings. I began to understand more about Glorantha and I now appreciate its depth, originality, and history.

That said, I don't use Glorantha for my games. My players don't know Glorantha and I won't force them to learn it. We play with no real established setting, we make stuff up as we go. My players have their own ideas about what they want their characters to be, and while they may lack some originality or depth, they play what's comfortable to them.

I think they could get some better artwork for the books, but I think its fine if they are balck and white. I never liked the color illustrations in the D&D books.

I think certain D&D features, like ilithids are trademarks of Wizards, and are copyrighted.

A DM's Handbook would be cool, especially if it had adventures in it. I have a a hard time making up plots that take advantage of MRQ2's style because all I've known are D&D style plots and the habits are hard to break.

I don't mean to disrespect Mongoose, Loz, Pete, or anyone else who made MRQ2 what it is. I think the game is awesome, I just want to see it on those store shelves, right next to D&D (or in its place!) Where it belongs.