Anti-glorantha rant to moongose.

[Rungard]

You may have a GM that is willing to run the setting but is not experienced with it. Meanwhile you may have some seasoned players who know Glorantha. How do you run a game like this?

"GM: So the Grand Poo-Bah of the God Learners wants to invite you for tea and metaphysical discussions....

Player: Um, GM, I don't think Sizzlechest of the God Learners would do that. He's more likely to steal his soul on the spot and......."

In my opinion, these players are being rather rude and they don't like to have fun! If you respect the effort that the GM has put in preparing the session and the GM has read the background information about the place where the action is taking place, I think that's enough. I mean, your GM's Glorantha will vary. I don't think that I, as a player, won't have fun if the GM hasn't read as many books on Glorantha as me. I think extreme background-orthodoxs like these players are thankfully hard to find, and they are laughable anyway. :roll:

If I were the GM of your example, I would tell the player that I'm not forcing him to play in my Glorantha, so either he accepts the Glorantha I know or he has to look for a GM that has read as much as him in another place.

And this type of player could happen with any other world, not only Glorantha. If players have common sense, this case just doesn't happen.

 

[hector]

I bought Pavis Rises with the hope of running it for some friends. I'd hoped for an adventure path, similar to Secrets of the Ancients for Traveller, but instead I found a sandbox campaign which, while good for an experienced Glorantha GM to introduce newbies to the setting, there's little to help newbie GMs in the same way.

I concur with this 100%. I love the setting of Glorantha and have read materials on it on and off for years, but have never run an rpg campaign and only run a session once or twice. I too was hoping for more structure and would appreciat perhaps a book of scenarios or a compilation signs and portents issue with a couple adventures to fit each broad cultural type?

I think there's a dichotomy between two different gaming styles here. I love sandbox campaigns that give my players the chance to explore and set their own paths. That's why, to me, Griffin Mountain is the ideal Runequest scenario pack. It also gives the GM huge amounts of latitude.

On the other hand, some people love tightly-plotted, well-crafted scenario paths that I regard as railroady. That was the direction Heroquest went in, with the Sartar Rising campaign. I couldn't run that, although it's hard to deny there are some really cool elements. Even the classic Cradle adventure from the original Pavis set suffered from this lack-of-free-will problem to some extent.

I think the only solution is to release scenario packs of both kinds...

Perhaps I should explain myself better: as a complete beginner as Glorantha goes, having only ever read the main Glorantha book and never having played in any Glorantha set games, running a sandbox as my first ever campaign is extremely intimidating. Sure, if I had experience in the setting, I'd love to run Pavis Rises for newbies. It looks awesome in the hands of an experienced GM who's both run and played in the same setting for a few years beforehand. But that's not me. I can't introduce new players to the setting in the form of a sandbox in which everything is simply thrown in from the start because I don't understand half of it.

An adventure path would simply make it easier to introduce myself as well as my players to the setting. Railroady, sure, but it at least allows me to introduce new elements to the game gradually instead of throwing it all in and trying to teach them at the same time as trying to wrap my own head around the setting.

Edit: Having said that, thanks for the advice already given above; with it I could almost create a few introductory adventures to fit in before Pavis Rises. On the other hand, I think one of the hardest things I've found to wrap my head around is the idea that all of the different myths are true; especially the ones that contradict each other.

 

[daxos232]

I know that the subject of artwork has already been discussed on this thread a bit, but I want to post this real life example that I had a few weeks ago. I think it really illustares the importance of great artwork.

I have a few friends who have never played a tabletop rpg before. They have all played plenty of World of Warcraft and other videogame rpgs.

I have told them about MRQ2 and they seemed very interested. They came to my place where I explained that I have two systems we can play, MRQ2 or Pathfinder. I explained what each system was like, and showed them the rulebooks. I wanted to know if they were more comfortable playing a class based game (Pathfinder) or a game more like real life (MRQ2).

They always preferred what I "told" them about MRQ2, but they kept "looking" at Pathfinder. They kept looking through the book, and eventually said they wanted to try Pathfinder.

We played 2 games of Pathfinder, but they got irritated with class restrictions after a while. We played MRQ2 instead next time. They freakin loved it.

I asked them, "Why did you want to play Pathfinder, after everything I told you? You seemed to like MRQ2's system more."

They replied, "We thought Pathfinder looked cooler. I think we judged it by looks, rather than how it plays. Like how you buy a videogame that looks cool, and has lots of hype, but the gameplay sucks."

 

[Psuedosirus]

+1. I can totally see the 3.5/Pazio/Pathfinder art (since it's the same thing) being a great draw. Color is important, but I also recall some D&D books where the art was terrible and always counted as a strike against those books (Monstrous Manual in 2E comes to mind).

Are we thinking that there is a need for a new setting, or for rules for making a generic setting? My own world, I think, is very approachable for new gamers; it takes place during an enormous Tolkien-esque war, so it's easy to get everyone aligned with the adventuring arc. But there's a lot to be said for a resource that helps people make their own thing.

Oh, and this game should be better supported at Cons. Pay me. I'll do it.

 

[cerebro]

Totally Agree, i would be happy to buy a copy of what you are selling (or at least get a copy)

I am really keen on pre-written adventures for Runequest - as a new Dad and a Partner in an international Accounting firm I have little time to prepare as a GM and all these aids would be good.

My adventures are going to be free,and Glorantha unrelated. Hope you like them.

 

[taxboy]

Totally Agree, i would be happy to buy a copy of what you are selling (or at least get a copy)

I am really keen on pre-written adventures for Runequest - as a new Dad and a Partner in an international Accounting firm I have little time to prepare as a GM and all these aids would be good.

My adventures are going to be free,and Glorantha unrelated. Hope you like them.

You are THe Man!

When when??

 

[AKAmra]

+1. I can totally see the 3.5/Pazio/Pathfinder art (since it's the same thing) being a great draw. Color is important, but I also recall some D&D books where the art was terrible and always counted as a strike against those books (Monstrous Manual in 2E comes to mind).

Are we thinking that there is a need for a new setting, or for rules for making a generic setting? My own world, I think, is very approachable for new gamers; it takes place during an enormous Tolkien-esque war, so it's easy to get everyone aligned with the adventuring arc. But there's a lot to be said for a resource that helps people make their own thing.

Oh, and this game should be better supported at Cons. Pay me. I'll do it.

The Pathfinder art doesn't do anything for me, I don't like anime style art. Maybe because I'm old, I'm okay with Old School B&W art. But, I can see where new players would be drawn to Pathfinder by the art.

I don't think we've reached a consensus of what should be done. I think the rules are generic enough to use for any fantasy setting. I think that Mongoose should continue what their doing and put out alternate settings, and then support an alternate setting if sales indicate that it is popular.

I have no problem with Glorantha material being published, but I won't buy it. OTOH, if RQII dropped Glorantha I wouldn't care.

Have dice, will travel? Sounds good; freelance dice slinging storyteller for hire. Good luck with that.

 

[ThatGuy]

I don't think it is necessarily the "anime" style if the art, (I'm not partial one way or the other), I think it's the consistent look that drives home a feeling of the world you are playing in. I think any VERY good artist would work, as long as he was creative a consistently good. One of the places MRQ2 loses visually, is the inconsistent nature of the artwork (I like this picture, I'm "meh" on this one, and I hate this one). I agree color makes a big difference in selling it to new players, but I love the leather covers personally- classy touch. I'm not in the printing biz, but color print could also drive up costs to a potentially non-feasible price point for an Indy game company.

This also means an artist would probably have to be put on some kind of salary, another (possibly untenable) expense. Not impossible with some artists out put (some have multiple streams of income and an extra thread is always welcome- if you "know someone" you can even get a deal...sometimes.)

I nominate Cory Nord! . (of Dark Horse "Conan" fame. That guy is awesome!!! He's googleable!)

 

[Dan True]

Okay, I'll collect here what I believe we have reached as a consensus so far. If you disagree, give a post. If this is true, I'll throw it up on the "What Should Mongoose Publish Next", unless cerebro want's to do it.

Publish a new version of the Core Rulebook to grab new players.
Price: 30-35 Pounds seems appropriate, but get it as low as possible. Wizards of the Coast can publish full-color books for this price, and I don't think they know some magic Mongoose doesn't? (other than much large sales of course, so they can handle a smaller earning on each book).
Remember that the price should reflect that the book in itself is not something to earn a fortune on. The book is to catch new players, so they buy other books.

New content:

• Most of the old text can stay as it is.

• Add some extensions to get new players started directly, such as "applicable weapon styles" under weapons, some sample grimoires under sorcery (maybe some classics such as "illusionist" etc.) and some sample magic items - everything a d&d gamer needs to quickly start playing RuneQuest II if buying the book.

• Extent the "GMing a RuneQuest game" section.

• Whether or not Glorantha should be mentioned at all in the book we have been unable to reach a consensus on. Regardless, the book should mention by name some of the other settings and perhaps a short description of each

• Be sure to include a reference to the RuneQuest forum in the book, and tell how much great stuff you can get here

• Include a starting adventure

Most of the above can be added either directly into the text, or added as a free page put into the cover.

New Design:

• Make sure the art is consistent. As of now some of the art is just malplaced (not all though).

• Preferable make the whole book color (cover, pages, art). Not because color is better, but because people judge by looks and on the gaming shelf RQ2 is being compared to Pathfinder, D&D 4ed, Dark Heresy... Which all have great art and color

.

Other

• Produce an adventure that can be played without the rulebook (with simplified rules, presented when needed) so allow people to try the system, by only spending like 2-5 pounds or something. Dark Heresy did it, and it should be a great way of trying out a system before buying the expensive rulebook

So, what have I forgotten?

- Dan

 

[Psuedosirus]

Publish a new version of the Core Rulebook to grab new players. - Dan

Not sure that is needed (since MRQ2 just came out) as much as a world-building or generic setting. Or a starter rule set that is given away, per GURPS, linked to the generic setting. I would mention Glorantha as often as Wizards mentioned Greyhawk, although there is no consensus on this. And full color art in a free pdf is probably much more feasible than in a printed book (which they can, but do not have to, order from Mongoose). Once new people are hooked, then they will need the full rule set, which should also have consistent, and color, art.

Support the game at cons. Someone from Mongoose or their designee makes sure the option to play RQ is there and that product is there for those who want it.

I think you've got the general thrust of what a minor overhaul should look like. Thanks for listening.

 

[Loz]

Support the game at cons. Someone from Mongoose or their designee makes sure the option to play RQ is there and that product is there for those who want it.

This is crucial and key. Pete and I go to as many cons as we can and try to promote the game as widely as we can. This year I've been to four cons in UK, Canada and the US, proselytizing RQ as I go. Pete has trekked to Germany, the UK and Stockholm to promote the game.

But here's the rub. Few others seem keen to do so. Its all very well to say 'pay me and I'll do it' but that isn't going to happen. People who care about RQ need to take the initiative without expecting reward and get out to cons, local and otherwise, to spread the word. If there's a prevailing attitude that its Mongoose's or the designers' sole responsibility, then things will languish as they are.

Getting out and demonstrating the game is the best way to make it more popular - more so that free beginners PDFs, updated rolebooks, full-colour, and all the rest. People learn, and and converted by, doing. Its also an immediate, visceral thing.

But it needs people like you, those who post here, to make it work!

 

[Psuedosirus]

Noted. DragonCon has a substantial gaming component, although I don't think of it as a "gaming con." I'll see what I can throw together between now and Labor Day!

What would be helpful is a place to locate cons and experience with getting games on their tracks.

Oh, and I'm sure most of us would accept payment in stuff.

 

[Dan True]

Not sure that is needed (since MRQ2 just came out) as much as a world-building or generic setting. Or a starter rule set that is given away, per GURPS, linked to the generic setting. I would mention Glorantha as often as Wizards mentioned Greyhawk, although there is no consensus on this. And full color art in a free pdf is probably much more feasible than in a printed book (which they can, but do not have to, order from Mongoose). Once new people are hooked, then they will need the full rule set, which should also have consistent, and color, art.

Well, I agree that those books should be put out. But no matter how many books are published, if people don't pick up the core rulebook - then they'll never pick up the others.

Support the game at cons. Someone from Mongoose or their designee makes sure the option to play RQ is there and that product is there for those who want it.

Agreed. Cons are important.

- Dan

 

[Mark Mohrfield]

Wizards of the Coast can publish full-color books for this price, and I don't think they know some magic Mongoose doesn't? (other than much large sales of course, so they can handle a smaller earning on each book).
- Dan

The "magic" is large print runs, which cost less per item.

 

[Dan True]

Wizards of the Coast can publish full-color books for this price, and I don't think they know some magic Mongoose doesn't? (other than much large sales of course, so they can handle a smaller earning on each book).
- Dan

The "magic" is large print runs, which cost less per item.

Ah ya, of course. Doh

 

[Exubae]

Perhaps it may be better for Mongoose to produce a glossy con-pack.
Cut down rules, glossy character sheets and pc backgrounds, and a solid adventure. Make the pack open at a cut down price/free for those willing to demo the game. Possibly even supply figures or a book as a prize to present to the best player.
The best way to get players into the game is to get them to play.

@Dan True:
The Core book is pretty good apart from some lecherous art work, and I agree it does need examples of grimoires and combat maneuvers. But Its pretty much the best incarnation of the rules to date and is pretty much free of Glorantha or Elric.
The classy leather cover and the clean lay out is uncluttered and easy to read (unlike the bewildering fonts and overlays in Dark Heresy) and is a vast improvement on its previous incarnations.
Why is it so important to present a constant art style in a core book, especially when it is effectively untied to any setting? Cerebro's hand-out although it is pretty its hardly ground breaking, exciting or much of an improvement on the existing artwork other than it offers colour- its just a series of cliche images trying to force the character backgrounds into the tired class approach of D&D.

 

[cerebro]

I don't think we need to do anything when it comes to the core rulebooks. They are done,and the system is great.

There are one products that I think will sell well with the market you already have. Some kind of GM book.Almost everyone here has version of their own world. It seems to come with Runequest GMing to build your own world. The book should have rules on travel,Traps, Magic items and all the things you need to make adventures.

For Runequest to gain more players we need to tell people why this is better. Most companies are now doing free introductory adventures (by the way I love S&P). Lets make one. With 20 builds with cool names(pre-gen characters) to choose from. D&D players love that. As soon as they get a taste of the combat and magic system,many of them will be hooked. This has to be done with great art. Not color, B&W art is better if we get the set to be dark,even better.

But then again I don't know how moongoose is doing or even if they want to go in that direction. I'm just talking from a player perspective, of many systems, for the last 14 years. I will do my little experiment,and tell you how it went here. If the guys at mongoose like it, maybe we can publish it in S&P for free distribution.

 

[Dan True]

The Core book is pretty good apart from some lecherous art work, and I agree it does need examples of grimoires and combat maneuvers. But Its pretty much the best incarnation of the rules to date and is pretty much free of Glorantha or Elric.
The classy leather cover and the clean lay out is uncluttered and easy to read (unlike the bewildering fonts and overlays in Dark Heresy) and is a vast improvement on its previous incarnations.

I agree that the core rulebook is a really, really great rulebook. However, I can see that (at least in my gaming store) when placed on the shelves people tend to look at the books that shiny and are colorfull - d&d, Dark heresy, Pathfinder and so on - and take those down to look at. A leather cover (albeit classy and handsome) simply does not catch the attention in the same way.

I am not saying they should stop publishing the rulebook as it is, merely saying that another incarnation of the rulebook presented in a way more d&d/pathfinder players know, might get more of them to play the game. Once they're hooked, it doesn't matter that the setting books/monster books are black & white.

Why is it so important to present a constant art style in a core book, especially when it is effectively untied to any setting?

People of my age, (born late 80s) have mostly only experienced the full-colour books of 3.x and then computer games (there are exceptions, like myself - and others who played 2ed and so on) with consistent art work. When they see a black&white book in the way RuneQuest is, a lot of them will not say "classy" but "old/booring". They're mistaken of course, but that's the modern consumer for you (or, my view of the modern consumer).

But, I am not saying this is the only way to get people to play. Cons, starting adventures, commercials/try-outs and so on are all ways. I just know most of those wouldn't have catched me. Any system I've tried, except RuneQuest which I was recommended by my big brother, I've tried because I had a look at the books, found them interesting, looked a bit on the net and then bought them. I may be in the a minority of course.

But it also comes down to if RuneQuest should focus on trying to get players from other systems, or get new players entirely.

- Dan

 

[Jujitsudave]

Pimp it out to consumers based off it's superior and more dynamic combat system. That's what drew me to it.

I'm pretty old school. To me, artwork is completely irrelevant but the actual ruleset is what grabs me. I've been gaming since 88 and unfortunately I see the current generation of gamers being more concerned with artistic style over substance. Maybe try to do something different with the art that is full color? I miss the old full color 2E art that had fantasy style with a more medieval theme.

 

[cerebro]

Pimp it out to consumers based off it's superior and more dynamic combat system. That's what drew me to it.

I think you are right.