Alternative skill system

[rabindranath72]

Cross posted from another thread, I guess it might be useful to have it in a different thread:

I might suggest a different system I have been using, imported from Star Wars Saga.
- Essentially, at character creation every character chooses a number of skills equal to the skill points, plus intelligence modifier. These are considered trained skills.

- Skill checks are done as follows:1d20 + half character level (rounded down) + 5 if skill is trained, +5 if skill is focused.

- To acquire trained skills, you must spend a feat which allows transforming a class skill into a trained skill.

- When you multiclass, you simply pool all skills from the different classes, which are then considered all class skills.

- The skill focus feat allows adding +5 to a trained skill roll.

- The skill training feat allows adding +5 when doing a skill check with a trained skill.

- When a race gives a bonus to a skill check, you simply allow a reroll in place of adding the bonus. So no math is involved.

That's all. It is practically impossible to do an error with this system, and it is MUCH faster than the standard one.

 

[Trodax]

I also like the very simple skill system as presented in Star Wars Saga Edition. However, due to multiclassing, there are problems with adapting this system into other d20 games without changing anything else. Basically, characters in Conan would benefit immensely from starting at 1st level with the Scholar, Thief or Temptress class (which would give them 8 starting skills), and then branching out into other classes. A character starting with Soldier at 1st level would only get 2 skills, and would have to spend 6 feats to "catch up".

In Saga this is balanced out because all classes have a package of stuff that you only get at 1st level (besides the number of starting skills, this includes bonus feats as well as more or less hit points). If I were to use this in Conan, I would therefore modify so that there was more benefit in starting with a skill-light class at 1st level (ruling that weapon/armour proficiences were only gained for free at 1st level would be an obvious choice, as well as maybe giving some classes a few more bonus hit points).

 

[rabindranath72]

This assuming that a GM allows ALL characters to be scholars, and allows ALL characters to multiclass "gratis". Neither should be given for granted!
For example, in my games I do not allow multiclassing at all.

 

[Clovenhoof]

This assuming that a GM allows ALL characters to be scholars, and allows ALL characters to multiclass "gratis". Neither should be given for granted!

It IS given for granted. There are no restrictions whatsoever in the rules as to what starting classes are permitted (except racial prohibited classes), and much less when and how a character may pick up additional classes. On the contrary, Conan RPG encourages multiclassing more than original D20 does.

Of course you can houserule anything you want. But then you actually have to _formulate_ those rules. You can't say this and that can't be taken for granted if the official rules say exactly that.

As for the matter at hand, the SW Saga skill system does have certain merits, especially the merged skill groups (like Stealth, Perception and so on).
The trained/untrained dichotomy could perhaps also be made to work with the Conan system, but as Trodax has pointed out, surely some tweaking would have to be done to avoid serious class imbalance, and it would have to be more than just saying "you can't multiclass anymore".

 

[Krushnak]

For example, in my games I do not allow multiclassing at all.

any reason why? cause that there makes Conan unviable in a conan based game.

i for one see no problem with the current skill system, it only takes long to do if your unsure of what you want from your character but if you do know you can go through it pretty quickly.

 

[rabindranath72]

This assuming that a GM allows ALL characters to be scholars, and allows ALL characters to multiclass "gratis". Neither should be given for granted!

It IS given for granted. There are no restrictions whatsoever in the rules as to what starting classes are permitted (except racial prohibited classes), and much less when and how a character may pick up additional classes. On the contrary, Conan RPG encourages multiclassing more than original D20 does.

Of course you can houserule anything you want. But then you actually have to _formulate_ those rules. You can't say this and that can't be taken for granted if the official rules say exactly that.

As for the matter at hand, the SW Saga skill system does have certain merits, especially the merged skill groups (like Stealth, Perception and so on).
The trained/untrained dichotomy could perhaps also be made to work with the Conan system, but as Trodax has pointed out, surely some tweaking would have to be done to avoid serious class imbalance, and it would have to be more than just saying "you can't multiclass anymore".

Let's say I do not agree with the "free multiclassing" aspect of the game. Besides, and to the point, any DM ruling trumps the rules ALWAYS, and it ALWAYS comes before ANYTHING in the rulebook. This is part and parcel of being a DM, despite what the d20 trend seems to have taught in the last years.

 

[rabindranath72]

I also like the very simple skill system as presented in Star Wars Saga Edition. However, due to multiclassing, there are problems with adapting this system into other d20 games without changing anything else. Basically, characters in Conan would benefit immensely from starting at 1st level with the Scholar, Thief or Temptress class (which would give them 8 starting skills), and then branching out into other classes. A character starting with Soldier at 1st level would only get 2 skills, and would have to spend 6 feats to "catch up".

In Saga this is balanced out because all classes have a package of stuff that you only get at 1st level (besides the number of starting skills, this includes bonus feats as well as more or less hit points). If I were to use this in Conan, I would therefore modify so that there was more benefit in starting with a skill-light class at 1st level (ruling that weapon/armour proficiences were only gained for free at 1st level would be an obvious choice, as well as maybe giving some classes a few more bonus hit points).

Thinking a bit more about this, it actually is not imbalanced with respect to the standard system. Even with the standard system, a player could opt to max out all the skills he gets. If he does so, then he chooses "skill points + int mod" skills at first level at 4 ranks. Every subsequent level he allocates all the skill points he gets to his skills and the effective rank will be level+3; not much different than SAGA's half-level+5.
So, even with the core rules Thieves, Temptresses and Scholars would seem to be "advantaged". By adopting SAGA's system one in simply making the classes more archetypal, which is a very good thing IMO. And making them BETTER than would be by the standard, maxed out system, since skills points are implicitly allocated also to all other class and non-class skills.
Besides, the worthless accounting exercise which is skill points distribution is reduced to null, which is the better part of it all.

 

[rabindranath72]

For example, in my games I do not allow multiclassing at all.

any reason why? cause that there makes Conan unviable in a conan based game.

i for one see no problem with the current skill system, it only takes long to do if your unsure of what you want from your character but if you do know you can go through it pretty quickly.

What do you mean "makes Conan unviable"? The currently published Conan stat block is just ONE possible version of Conan. You can create a meaningful Conan character even with just one class and a selection of skills and feats.
If I have time I will post my idea of Conan done with the SAGA skill rules.

 

[Trodax]

Thinking a bit more about this, it actually is not imbalanced with respect to the standard system. Even with the standard system, a player could opt to max out all the skills he gets. If he does so, then he chooses "skill points + int mod" skills at first level at 4 ranks. Every subsequent level he allocates all the skill points he gets to his skills and the effective rank will be level+3; not much different than SAGA's half-level+5.
So, even with the core rules Thieves, Temptresses and Scholars would seem to be "advantaged".

With single-class characters, the two systems are pretty much the same, I agree. As for multiclassing, the truth is that there already is an incentive for starting at 1st level with a skill-heavy class, but this "problem" (if you consider it a problem!) is made much worse by adapting the Saga system.

Consider this example, which compares a Thief/Soldier multiclass character (which starts as a Thief at 1st level) with a Soldier/Thief character (starting out as a Soldier).
(The example assumes no Int-bonus.)

Regular skill point system:

Thief 1/Soldier 1
Total skill ranks: 8*4+2 = 34

Soldier 1/Thief 1
Total skill ranks: 2*4+8 = 16

Saga skills:

Thief 1/Soldier 1
Trained skills: 8

Soldier 1/Thief 1
Trained skills: 2

So, as you see, under the normal system the Thief/Soldier does have an advantage over the Soldier/Thief (the Soldier/Thief only gets a whopping 2 extra hit points to compensate), but the difference is even more pronounced with the Saga system.

I also note that, under the Saga system, the multiclass characters above do not gain any benefits (skill-wise!) from getting any more Thief-levels (the first Thief level they get gives them access to the Thief skill list as class skills, but beyond that I mean). With the normal system you always get a little boost to your skills when you pick up a Thief level, regardless of when you do it. Basically you have "front-loaded" the classes with regards to skills. Thief, Temptress and Scholar will be "starting classes" and not all that useful to multiclass into later on.

Of course, all the problems I can see with adapting this system into Conan have to do with multiclassing, and if you don't allow that in your game then... well, you don't have a problem.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Well, I for one would be interested in a simplified skill system that _does_ work with multiclassing. It should not give an even greater advantage to 1st-level 8-pointers than currently, and in turn offer some benefit for subsequent levels taken in 8-point-classes. Any suggestions?

 

[Oly]

There's more to multi-classing in the SW Saga system than just skills. All classes give a number of feats to characters who start at first level with them, the soldier gives 5 for example.

When you multiclass you don't get all of those feats, you get to pick 1.

Sure a player could start as a Noble to get 6 + Int Mod trained skills as opposed to 3+ Int modifier for the Soldier. The good, they gain 3 extra trained skills. The bad, they loose 4 feats for doing it.

Conan could be made to work a similar way, if the non skill heavy classes each had a number of starting feats and/or features. Giving 5 feats to the soldier, of which a character multi-classing into soldier could only pick 1, gives some idea of how WOTC see the balance, roughly a trained skill is worth a feat.

In the above example of the thief and the soldier if the solder has a number of starting feats or features (as opposed to the single feat they have to pick at the moment) then a Soldier 1/Thief 1 would only have 2 trained skills but all of the feats while a Thief 1/Soldier 1 might have 8 trained skills but be lacking in feats.

Why switch to a skill based class later? Well the list of your class skills increases, which are the only skills you can be trained in and you would gain access to some of the feats/features of that class.

 

[rabindranath72]

I really do not see a problem with the Saga system. Even the standard system allows front-loading and maxing out of skills, and it is as valid a choice as any other.
And do not forget that characters get 1/2 level in ALL the skills in the game! And when you add another class, you get all of that class' skills as potentially trained and focused skills.
This IMO much more than compensates for the "flexibility" of the standard system. Even if I later get a level of thief, I get what? 8 skill points? Which, if I am smart, I am in any case going to spend on a few thief-appropriate skills. What's the point of acquiring a level of thief, and spending points in the previous (e.g. soldier) class? Only to get more skills points? Every DM worth his name should prohibit this; acquisition of a class level means getting some experience in things related to the class. The rules would allow this, but it would not be appropriate from a role-playing point of view.
Finally, a class is defined not only by skills, but by its special abilities and feats.

 

[rabindranath72]

I also note that, under the Saga system, the multiclass characters above do not gain any benefits (skill-wise!) from getting any more Thief-levels (the first Thief level they get gives them access to the Thief skill list as class skills, but beyond that I mean).

Not true. Adding levels improves the total character level, which in turns improves the skill checks of ALL skills, both class, cross-class and trained.

 

[Trodax]

I also note that, under the Saga system, the multiclass characters above do not gain any benefits (skill-wise!) from getting any more Thief-levels (the first Thief level they get gives them access to the Thief skill list as class skills, but beyond that I mean).

Not true. Adding levels improves the total character level, which in turns improves the skill checks of ALL skills, both class, cross-class and trained.

Yes, character level of course improves skills, but class has no effect here. What I was saying was that with Saga you don't get any skill-improvement for levelling up with a level of Thief instead of a level of Soldier (as you do in regular Conan).

 

[Trodax]

Well, I for one would be interested in a simplified skill system that _does_ work with multiclassing. It should not give an even greater advantage to 1st-level 8-pointers than currently, and in turn offer some benefit for subsequent levels taken in 8-point-classes. Any suggestions?

Oly pretty much summed this up; you would create a little list of stuff for each class (skills, feats and hit points) that characters only gain at 1st level.

I'll also note that Saga heavily encourages multiclassing (including multiclassing into prestige classes which we don't have so much in Conan), so it's not that there's any problem with that system in itself. It's just that in my book the skill system imported into Conan without any other modification would mess up multiclassing a bit (and I don't like this because I personally love multiclassing and want it to be a common thing in my games ).

 

[Clovenhoof]

Oly pretty much summed this up; you would create a little list of stuff for each class (skills, feats and hit points) that characters only gain at 1st level.

I'd have to sit over that a bit, to find a viable balance. Did I get that right, Fighter-types would get four or five bonus feats to balance out the skill training? All at first level? I'm sure the players would love getting five feats at first level, but to me it seems a bit overpowered. oÔ

BTW could someone clarify how exactly the various skill types work exactly?

a) Trained skill -- Abi + 1/2 Char level + 5. Are these all the class skills you have at 1st level? Or just a number like 4+INT (whatever the class says) out of your cass skills are trained?

b) Class skill -- Abi + 1/2 char level. So any skill you pick up through multiclassing falls under this category? Is there any way to Train additional class skills?

c) Cross-class skill -- what's the modifier for these, just the ability? Can you Focus cross-class skills?

 

[Trodax]

BTW could someone clarify how exactly the various skill types work exactly?

It works like this:

* All skills have Abi + 1/2 Char level as a baseline. This means that high level characters can do pretty much everything at least decently. This fits well in Star Wars where the main characters can be seen to do a lot of different stuff (jump on a speeder and be able to drive it, try to hack through an electronic lock, etc.). It might fit in Conan as well, but I'm not as sure.

* Being Trained in a skill gives you a +5 bonus. At 1st level you gain a number of Trained skills depending on your class (for example 4 + Int). To become Trained in additional skills you will have to purchase the Skill Training feat which (of course) makes you Trained in one skill. If you raise your Int-bonus as you level up, you immediately also gain an additional Trained skill. However, you can only ever (at 1st level and later on) be Trained in a skill that is on your class skill list. So if you want to be good at a skill that is outside your class skill list, you must multiclass into a class that has it on their list. Once you have at least one level of a class you can always choose Skill Training for skills from that list, you don't have to do it at that particular level or anything (basically multiclassing expands your skill list).

* Being Focused in a skill (the Skill Focus feat) gives you an additional +5 bonus. You can only Focus in a skill that you are already Trained in.

Was that clear?

 

[rabindranath72]

It might fit in Conan as well, but I'm not as sure.

The whole idea of unrestricted multiclassing in d20 Conan is that all characters should be able to do everything (within reason); the "single-player" rules further reinforce this idea (see Conan Compendium). It turns out that the SAGA system embodies exactly this idea, so that multiclassing may be altogether not necessary at all.
To have Conan be an excellent climber, you just need to make climb a trained and focused skill; and you do not need any thief level to do so.
I rest with my point that the SAGA system can be seen simply as a different implementation of the standard "maxed out skills" approach, and therefore no modifications of the system are necessary to make it work (with and without multiclassing); no more than one would modify the system if all characters were created by maxing out their skills.

 

[Oly]

Did I get that right, Fighter-types would get four or five bonus feats to balance out the skill training? All at first level? I'm sure the players would love getting five feats at first level, but to me it seems a bit overpowered.

Well that's how the SW Saga system manages it. What I was saying is that you can't really just take the Saga system of skills, where there's a benefit to taking your first level in a skill bases class, without also taking the Saga system of balancing which is that you don't get all of a classes starting features when you multi class into it.

Another thing to consider is that there are more feats in the Saga system. For example Trip isn't an option when you're grappling, grapple has been (thankfully) simplified. In Saga Trip is a feat which extends grappling.

There's also another aspect to classes in SW Saga, the Talent trees for each class. A hierarchical list of special features is how I could describe them.

The soldier, for example, gets to pick one at level 1 and another at level 3.

So if some munchkin makes a Noble 1/Soldier 2 to boost his skills then when compared to a straight soldier 3 in exchange for those trained skills he's lost not only all but one of the starting feats but also is on level 1 of the talent tree compared to 2 for the Solider.

BTW could someone clarify how exactly the various skill types work exactly?

Trained: Abi + 1/2 Char Level +5
Untrained: Abi + 1/2 Char Level

Class Skill: You can only be trained in a class skill.

Skill Training Feat: You can pick one class skill to be trained in.

Skill Focus Feat: You can pick one trained skill to focus.

When you pick your first class you get a list of class skills. You are not trained in all of them though.

When you multiclass into another class your list of class skills increases however you do not get any extra trained skills.

When you level up you do not get new trained skills, the only way to train a skill is to take the skill training feat.+/

 

[Trodax]

Did I get that right, Fighter-types would get four or five bonus feats to balance out the skill training? All at first level? I'm sure the players would love getting five feats at first level, but to me it seems a bit overpowered. oÔ

Well this would probably include the weapon and armour proficiency feats (most of the free feats in Saga are proficiencies).
For example, you might have:

Scholar
6 + Con hit points
8 Trained skills
Simple weapon proficiency

Soldier
10 + Con hit points
2 Trained skills
Simple weapon proficiency
Martial weapon proficiency
Light armour proficiency
Medium armour proficiency
Heavy armour proficiency
Shield proficiency
Two-weapon combat proficiency

Since 1 feat = 1 Trained skill in this system (you get Trained in skills by purchasing the Skill Training feat), this might be decently balanced.
What it means is that a Scholar who wants to be more 'fighty' will have to spend feats to get proficiencies (even if he multiclasses into Soldier since you won't get all that stuff for free) while a Soldier who wants to be more skillful will have to spend feats on Skill Training (even if he multiclasses into Scholar).

One important thing to know, though, is that characters in Saga gain more free feats than in Conan (every third character level as normal, but in addition all classes gain a bonus feat every second level). This means that Saga characters are more flexible and can easily pick up more skills or proficiences as they level up. Characters in Conan will probably be more restricted (basically their starting class will define them more).