Alternative skill system

[Clovenhoof]

Ah I get it. So in turn, if a Scholar multiclasses into Soldier, he wouldn't get any of the proficiencies? Well, that's a bummer. So I think you could say that either combination gets shafted equally.

More thoughts on the issue:

- Saga assumes and implements an all-or-nothing approach in all cases. You'd max out the skill or you don't take it at all. While that holds true for a number of skills (like Stealth, Perception), other skills suffice perfectly if you just "dip" into them, especially those with fixed DCs rather than opposed checks.

- Some skill usages would have to be rewritten, for example Feinting in combat. Normally you roll your Bluff check against the opponent's BAB-modified Sense Motive check. If you look at 10th-level fighter-types, a Bluff-trained attacker would have a skill check of 10 + aby whereas the Sense-Motive-untrained (!) defender would have 15 + aby. 20 + aby if he's trained. That basically makes feinting impossible. If you kick out the BAB modifier, untrained characters don't have much of a chance to defend against a feint. The original rule was to make sure that you don't just have to max out Bluff in order to ride anyone's ass in combat, but ensure balanced odds.
Similarly for Intimidate.

- Besides, I'm not in favour of the "everybody can do everything" approach in all cases. There is a reason why skills are split in class and cross-class. I don't see why, say, a Borderer should be any good at Forgery, or a Soldier should have a decent chance to decipher ancient scripts, _unless_ there is a special reason for that in their backgrounds (which in Conan is simulated by the freebie choice for Int-skillpoints - it enables you to pick up one or two extra skills, but not be good at ALL of them).
Maybe not giving the 1/2 level mod to cross-class skills would solve that.

 

[Oly]

I should quickly point out that I'm not arguing that Conan should be converted to a SW Saga type approach. I've got that game and while I've not run it it does appear interesting in terms of design, however I've got no plans to shift my Conan game over at the moment.

Ah I get it. So in turn, if a Scholar multiclasses into Soldier, he wouldn't get any of the proficiencies? Well, that's a bummer. So I think you could say that either combination gets shafted equally.

Well basically you can't just start off in a skill rich class then switch over to a feat/talent rich one without consequences. Munchkins won't go making a 1st level Noble and then switching over to Solder just to get the extra skills, there are consequences.

More thoughts on the issue:

Saga assumes and implements an all-or-nothing approach in all cases. You'd max out the skill or you don't take it at all.

Absolutely true. The justification is something along the lines of high level characters being just generally better at everything than low level characters and those high level characters being able to handle all sorts of events.

An example they gave at one point was Obi-Wan Kenobi in Revenge of the Sith. Suddenly he's shown capable of riding an animal really quite well. In game terms the player is unlikely to have spent many skill points in such a rare skill but the character doesn't spend the whole chase falling off his mount.

Sure if a player wants to be an expert animal rider they can do it, and they'll be far better than their peers who didn’t.

However the GM will be able to drop the PCs into situations that they haven't planned their characters for and they'll be able to handle them reasonably well.

People may or may not agree with that philosophy, and I'm not sure that I do for Conan, however that's where the system is coming from.

Some skill usages would have to be rewritten, for example Feinting in combat.

Absolutely. For example Feint in Saga comes under the Deception Skill and is opposed by your opponents initiative skill check. BAB doesn't come into it.

Besides, I'm not in favour of the "everybody can do everything" approach in all cases.

See my above point about the design philosophy behind the SW Saga system.

Personally I think it works for Star Wars where it allows one off OTT action sequences but I'm not too keen on it for Conan. However I would like to see some of the ideas, such as a much reduced skill list, carried over.

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah, the reduced skill list is definitely an excellent call, and I have already carried it over to our Conan game. One positive side effect is that the merged skills already faciliate bookeeping, so the need for a rank-less skill system does not seem so dire anymore.

Apart from that, I consider the rankless skills especially beneficial to the GM when it comes to designing NPCs. Well we've just had that topic in another thread -- it just sucks to distribute >100 skill points if you want to by-the-book a powerful NPC. But for players, unless you have a very high PC fatality rate, it doesn't make such a big difference. On the contrary, most players love it when they can make a lot of changes to their charsheets on levelup.

 

[Trodax]

The whole idea of unrestricted multiclassing in d20 Conan is that all characters should be able to do everything (within reason); the "single-player" rules further reinforce this idea (see Conan Compendium). It turns out that the SAGA system embodies exactly this idea, so that multiclassing may be altogether not necessary at all.

Yeah, that's true. Having thought about it a bit more, I guess I think "everybody can do everything" fits fairly well with Conan. Conan did do a lot of different stuff in the stories after all; he even knew the Rune of Jebbal Sag in Beyond the Black River! (And I find it hard to belive that he ever trained in any arcane skills.)

To have Conan be an excellent climber, you just need to make climb a trained and focused skill; and you do not need any thief level to do so.

This works for Conan because he is a Barbarian and the Climb skill is on the Barbarian skill list. But you can always end up with character concepts that aren't as viable. For example, I might want to create a Thief who is also an excellent rider, or a Borderer-Healer. With the Saga system, this is simply not possible without multiclassing. One idea (if you intend to use the system) would be to keep the Conan-rule that the extra skills you receive from an Int-bonus may be any skill, not just your class skills. That would give much more flexibility to character-creation; otherwise I think you will end up with very rigid classes (if you disallow multiclassing, I mean).

I rest with my point that the SAGA system can be seen simply as a different implementation of the standard "maxed out skills" approach, and therefore no modifications of the system are necessary to make it work (with and without multiclassing); no more than one would modify the system if all characters were created by maxing out their skills.

Well, as you might have guessed, I don't agree. But to each his own!

 

[Clovenhoof]

Yeah well, the point I was trying to make, it's well and good that a character can pick up one or two outside-the-box abilities. For example, Conan knows that Rune of Jebbal Sag because, in game terms, he has the Dabbler feat for Antimagic. But that doesn't mean he can put a curse on anyone or see into the future or create a zombie.
A straight-out Borderer may also be a Healer because he uses his INT bonus points to raise that skill. So that gives him this one skill, but it doesn't let him Decipher Scripts or brew alchemistic potions, _unless_ he has more bonus points to take care of these skills, too.

One important element of game design in general and class-based systems especially is niche protection: each class has their exclusive special abilities. "Exclusive" doesn't mean "slightly better than others", it means "can do what others cannot". In this light, the incentive for picking a skillbased class is a lot smaller, because you sacrifice other things (like full BAB, better Saves, more HP etc.) just to be an itsy-bitsy-teeny-weeny bit better at even the most obscure skills than the Bruiser who can only count to twenty as long as he's wearing sandals. In fact, you may get in-game scenes like a Scholar botching his Scripts roll so the Soldier ends up translating the runestone because he rolled 6 points higher, and that's _not_ how classes are supposed to work.

It reminds me a bit of a Star Trek game I once attended, where the GM wanted to give the crew a brand-new Enterprise-E-type ship with lots of extra gadgets like warp shields (read: impenetrable) and even a Pegasus device (that means "can fly through solid objects"). I had a hard time convincing him that was not a good idea, because it would be hard to come up with interesting challenges for such an omnipotent vessel. His point was sort of "Well you don't use these gadgets all the time", to which I replied "But they are THERE and the players will always use them whenever they think they need to". Well, that's similar to making each character good at all the skills.

Let me put it that way: a Conan character should be able to do _anything_, but not _everything_.

 

[Krushnak]

et me put it that way: a Conan character should be able to do _anything_, but not _everything_.

you already can. you can roll on untrained skills, its just the highest result you can get without ranks in it is a 10.

btw i find the grapple and trip rules retarded in saga. you now have to spend feats to be able to do what characters already could do and now spending the feat doesnt make you better at it it just allows you to do it!

condensed skill lists are good but they went a little overboard with it in saga. demolitions, craft and repair are all one skill :S i put my condensed list up awhile ago and think its all conan needs.

 

[Clovenhoof]

you already can. you can roll on untrained skills, its just the highest result you can get without ranks in it is a 10.

Yes, and that's okay - it allows you to handle some basic tasks (if basic tasks even exist for that skill), it doesn't enable you to take away the spotlight from someone who really knows what he's doing.

To use a modern comparison, if you're an engineer, you can bandage a small cut, but not perform surgery. If you're a surgeon, you can change a tyre but not completely overhaul an engine (unless you're a gynecologist, in which case you can do all that through the exhaust pipe, har har).

 

[rabindranath72]

One idea (if you intend to use the system) would be to keep the Conan-rule that the extra skills you receive from an Int-bonus may be any skill, not just your class skills. That would give much more flexibility to character-creation; otherwise I think you will end up with very rigid classes (if you disallow multiclassing, I mean).

It is not that I do not like multiclassing. I do not want it to be abused "since the rules allow it". Having even a 1st level in a class should really mean something, and should not be taken lightly.
The idea of interpreting the int bonus within the Saga framework is a good one; I had forgot about that rule, it fits perfectly.