All this FAPing...

[Court Jester]

Right... so I have my fleet book in front of me...

According to my book each FAP you spend is based on the PL of the game VS the PL the point is spent on (determining how many ships of that Pl your point will buy you). And then you can trade up those ships up (in pairs) to buy ships of the next PL up.

There is no splitting down of points in my book only combining up.

I would assume this is the new rule (over the rulle book version) and is the same in all fleet books?

 

[Greg Smith]

It is indeed the rule in my fleet book. Except the table with all the feasable breakdowns is calculated from splitting down.

 

[Court Jester]

It is indeed the rule in my fleet book. Except the table with all the feasable breakdowns is calculated from splitting down.

HAHAHAHAHA

GO MONGOOSE!

:roll:

I must admit Trading-Up is much simpler than splitting but no doubt others might have some reservations about it...

 

[Poi]

Please bring it along tonight! Pretty please.

 

[Da Boss]

The FAP system does confuse me a little and hoping that the table is right when my book gets here as splitting up sounds more confusing and hoping to avoid having to work it all out.

 

[Court Jester]

The FAP system does confuse me a little and hoping that the table is right when my book gets here as splitting up sounds more confusing and hoping to avoid having to work it all out.

Tradin-up is actually much easier than splitting down IMO at least.

You spend each FAP on a number of ships at a lower PL and they can then be traded up for bigger ships if you want to mix the PL's the FAP was spent on.

And you can still buy ships that are bigger than the PL of the game buy spending more than one FAP on them.

 

[Dizzy Vree]

im a little confused aswell, say i wanted to use 1 battle and 2 raid in a 10 raid game,

Would i spend 4 raid on raid level ships then swap 2 of the raid level ships for a battle?????????????????????????????

 

[Ripple]

weeeee....we love the PL thing cause its simpler than points....really....

Dizzy...in a 10 raid game if you wanted a battle and 2 raid you would spend 2 of your ten raid to buy the battle level ship, 1 raid on each raid ship and have 6 unspent raid points. The splits are always based on the difference in level from the level of the fight, up or down. Battle being one up it would cost you 2 slots to buy one ship.

Jester... how is buying up simpler? Splitting down as of Arm. was very straight forward. You bought down exactly as you do now (ie 1 raid at that time was equal to 2 skirmish) only you could continue to split one point down from each split. The only thing that made it odd was the splits down were not a consistent set of steps. The whole 2,3,6 thing could stop you.

Buying down then up just seems bizarre.

Especially given I don't see what the system offers anymore over points. It's just as flexible as a points system in most ways so it's not encouraging specific fleet choices the way it used to. Before you had dimishing returns for buying away from the level of the scenario, now they've in theory ironed it out so you always get a similar strength. It's not like the game has twenty thousand little niggly bits like most point systems where you would agonize over accessories for each fig.

ripple

 

[Court Jester]

I can't really explain why I find it easier...

I just think that splitting was more complicated with having to keep one point back and keeping track of where all your points went. I find this method far easier to just do in my head that I ever did with splitting down points.

Also the combine-up rule is easier for me because you cannot combine up endlessly like you could split down past more than one point. In the new system you can combine up one PL and thats it.

Maybe I'm just mental.

And maybe becaue you have used the split rule so often this new rule seems strange whereas I am seeing it with new eyes that have not used the splits too much.

 

[Right Hand of God]

You can split down as in SFOS and armageddon on the 1,2,4,8,12,18 splitas per page two of the fleet book, IN ADDITION, "you can also use a single Fleet Allocation Point" to buy ships of different priority levels using the following method"

that method is described on page 3 of the fleet book and gives a brekdown of what ships a FAP at Armageddon, War and Battle get you and how you trade up to change the mix.

eg An Amageddon point will but you 11 skirmish ships and 2 patrol, there is no option listed for 9 skirmish ships 1 raid and two patrol, but using the buy back method I can trade two of my 11 skirmish ships for a raid giving me the 9 skirmish, 1 raid and 2 patrol split.

The two systems, splitting down and buying up are not mutually exclusive. They will make it difficult to tell ata glance what an opponent has fieded in points terms but it does allow for greater and perhaps unnecessary flexibilty in spliting points.

One question this raises is the wording says "you can use a single fleet allocation point...." so in a 5 point game can you split down with all 5 points but trade up using just one points worth of ships, or was the wording meant to apply to how a single point is broken down and built up as an explanation of the mechanism?

 

[Court Jester]

You can split down as in SFOS and armageddon on the 1,2,4,8,12,18 splitas per page two of the fleet book, IN ADDITION, "you can also use a single Fleet Allocation Point" to buy ships of different priority levels using the following method"

that method is described on page 3 of the fleet book and gives a brekdown of what ships a FAP at Armageddon, War and Battle get you and how you trade up to change the mix.

I am aware of that as I have a copy of the fleet book in front of me.

Have you actually read what it says and not just looked at the incorrect summery below the rules?

Here is what the rule for breaking down fleet allocation points says -

Breaking Down Fleet Allocation Points

As well as using the Fleet Allocation table above you can also use a single Fleet Allocation Point to buy ships of different Priority Levels, using the following method.

If you use a Fleet Allocation Point to buy more than one ship (that is buy ships of a lower Prioriy Level than the scenario), then two of thise ships may be swapped for one ship of the nexy higher Priority Level. This may be done more than once if you are buying ships of a sufficiently loe Priority Level to the Scenario.

For example, if you are playing a War level scenario, you could buy four Raid level ships, as shown in the Fleet Alloctaion Table. However you could instead buy two Raid level ships and then swap the two remaining Raid level ships you would normally purchase for one Battle level ship.

A summery of how this works is shown here.

Except the summery below is not correct as already pointed out by Greg further up this thread.

There is nothing in the rules any more about splitting points down further than the Fleet alloctaion chart allows you to.

 

[Greg Smith]

Have you actually read what it says and not just looked at the incorrect summery below the rules?

Why is the summary incorrect and not the rule? If you take the rule book into account there are two cases of splitting down and one of combining up. Which would lead me to think the splitting down is the intended method.

Hopefully Matt will soon tell us which is correct.

 

[MustEatBrains]

Hopefully Matt will soon tell us which is correct.

I think it´s both, actually. In another thread, Matt ruled that splitting down to a lower level, and then exchange one of these points for several ships more than one level down, could be combined. (So splititng down seems to be allowed. Combining up is definitely in the rules, too.)

Still, Court Jester does have a point here, we really need a definite (and final! :wink: ) ruling on this. And please, make it downloadable or stickied (a list with all possible breakdown could be made available for download on the main page), or this question will come up again and again!

 

[Court Jester]

Have you actually read what it says and not just looked at the incorrect summery below the rules?

Why is the summary incorrect and not the rule? If you take the rule book into account there are two cases of splitting down and one of combining up. Which would lead me to think the splitting down is the intended method.

Hopefully Matt will soon tell us which is correct.

I have pretty much covered this in the other thread. :wink:

I also think that the combine up rule is much easier to explain in a written format than the splitting down rule.

Hell I don't care how it works just as long as someone from Mongoose can clear this up...

So we have to use the FAP table in the fleet book and the ignor the rest. And then use the spliting rules mentioned in the rule book but nothing else...

:roll:

 

[Right Hand of God]

Court Jester

Yes I did actually read the book before posting....but thanks for the tip

 

[Court Jester]

Court Jester

Yes I did actually read the book before posting....but thanks for the tip

Haha... I sounded quite snarky... my apologies about that.

I guess my problem is here that yes, the summary includes the breakdown for splitting points but WE know what it means because we have played the game under Armageddon rules.

If somoene with no experience of any other edition were to play this what are the expected to do? Some how decipher what the summary box is displaying. The summary mentions nothing about only being able to split down one point from each further split or that points can be spent on ships of a lower PL... or even how you split the points. It doesn't even mention splitting.

If a brand new player was to play this game using the rules in the fleet book I would guess he would have no idea about point splitting Armageddo style because it is not mentioned. Even if he was using the poinst breakdowns in the summary thinking they were the generated using the rules written in the book.

 

[Right Hand of God]

No problem

I thought a few areas of the rule book text suffered from that in places, an assumption that the reader played the previous edition and understood the mechanics.

This FAP fiasco is a real pain, not helped by having two different breakdowns in the fleet and rulebook and sumaries in the fleet book but no explanatory rules. Matt has said use the fleet book, that it is correct and that it replaces the rule book, but as you said, anybody without access to the forums isn't going to know that.

I think the increase from 6 to 8 skirmish ships for a point of war is a little on the excessive side too.

MGP really need to sort this out quickly with a pdf or stickied thread with a complete explanation and summaries of what can and can't be done. Otherwise this is going to drag on and detract from the game

 

[Poi]

All this, plus the poor production quality, smacks of a rushed product.

I had planned to pick both up at Colours next weekend.

Now I've seen both books, I'll leave 2e til the problems are resolved.

Doesn't bode well for future Mongoose releases.

 

[Right Hand of God]

No problems with the fleet book it is very good quality. The rule book however.......isn't