Aliens and Social Standing
- Thread starter jtanaka
- Start date
They would use the equivalent score, which is Caste (generated on 1d6). But remember, all DMs (+ and -) are halved when dealing with other races for this alien. This is covered specifically on Pg 41, 2nd Para under Aliens.
So for a droyne with a 1 Caste (-2), the effective SOC modifier would be (-1).
If some how the droyne had Caste 11 (+1) his/her/its effective SOC modifier would be (0), because half of +1 becomes 0...
So for a droyne with a 1 Caste (-2), the effective SOC modifier would be (-1).
If some how the droyne had Caste 11 (+1) his/her/its effective SOC modifier would be (0), because half of +1 becomes 0...
Which is, of course, the official rules response. My view on the otherhand is that everyone has a Social Standing score and that if Social Standing is the appropriate attribute, then Social Standing it is.... if for the poor Droyne the value is 0, and thus -2, then apologies but them's how it falls sometimes!
It is, of course, a weakness with Traveller as writ that strength of personality or charm has zero impact on your ability to deal with other humans. It's either how bright you are, and able to out-think people, or it's about your social position.
It is, of course, a tremendous strength with Traveller that it is so absurdly easy to add additional characteristics without upsetting game balance too much, that you can make those rules anything you want them to be
It is, of course, a weakness with Traveller as writ that strength of personality or charm has zero impact on your ability to deal with other humans. It's either how bright you are, and able to out-think people, or it's about your social position.
It is, of course, a tremendous strength with Traveller that it is so absurdly easy to add additional characteristics without upsetting game balance too much, that you can make those rules anything you want them to be
Sylvre Phire
Mongoose
I agree with phild's concept. There was an earlier thread – I can't seem to find it right now, but I'll post a link when I have more time – concerning Vargr, the Charisma stat and Social Standing. Someone was wondering about whether Charisma alone was the right stat to use when an Imperial Vargr interacts with other Imperial citizens.
The solution was brilliantly simple – Imperial Vargr also have Social Standing. Therefore, when the character interacts with other Vargr, they use their Charisma score. When interacting with other Imperial citizens, they use SOC. Of course, when interacting with other Imperial Vargr, things get really interesting. :lol:
I take this idea one step further – everybody has Social Standing; in this case, SOC is used by non-Imperials to deal with Imperials. However, their SOC is rarely as high as their Caste, Charisma, or Territory score. It's all based on how the cultures view each other, really.
At the same time, some races and cultures, have SOC integrated as part of their Caste system. For example, the K'kree have castes, but within those castes are varying ranks, thus I use SOC to mark those ranks within each caste.
It's an interesting idea and one I'd like to discuss further, but I'm headed out to work.
Pax et bonum,
Dale Meier
Creative Director
Hell Creek Sanitarium
Omaha, NE
The solution was brilliantly simple – Imperial Vargr also have Social Standing. Therefore, when the character interacts with other Vargr, they use their Charisma score. When interacting with other Imperial citizens, they use SOC. Of course, when interacting with other Imperial Vargr, things get really interesting. :lol:
I take this idea one step further – everybody has Social Standing; in this case, SOC is used by non-Imperials to deal with Imperials. However, their SOC is rarely as high as their Caste, Charisma, or Territory score. It's all based on how the cultures view each other, really.
At the same time, some races and cultures, have SOC integrated as part of their Caste system. For example, the K'kree have castes, but within those castes are varying ranks, thus I use SOC to mark those ranks within each caste.
It's an interesting idea and one I'd like to discuss further, but I'm headed out to work.
Pax et bonum,
Dale Meier
Creative Director
Hell Creek Sanitarium
Omaha, NE
As mentioned elsewhere, we have replaced Status with Influence, which
works like Status on the character's home planet, but is modified accor-
ding to species, relations and peer group outside the home planet.
For example, a famous Suri scientist from Negded has a high Status / In-
fluence on Negded, but less so on a planet inhabited by humans, or with
few or no relations with the Suri, or among bureaucrats.
works like Status on the character's home planet, but is modified accor-
ding to species, relations and peer group outside the home planet.
For example, a famous Suri scientist from Negded has a high Status / In-
fluence on Negded, but less so on a planet inhabited by humans, or with
few or no relations with the Suri, or among bureaucrats.
Cleon the Mad
Mongoose
Chrome said:
To a degree I can see this, but if I recall right I started the thread about Imperial Citizen Vargr. Mine was a more specific question, but it involved Vargr who are also Imperial citizens, why wouldn't they have both Charisma (For dealing with other Vargr) and a Social Standing stat (for dealing with other Imperial Citizens). Considering that The Domain of Antares has a Vargr Archduke (Or at least does circa year 1116 when the Rebellion starts, I don't know if he's an Archduke in 1105), he'd at least have a Social Standing of 16 from being an Archduke in the Imperium.
Here's one, would an Aslan who's an Imperial Citizen possibly have two Social Standing scores? One for being an Imperial Citizen, one for use among other Aslan? (I'd say no, if nothing else to just keep things simple, but the idea did cross my mind).
It's a hair more book keeping, and certainly not 'official', but it's reasonable to me for Aliens (Culturally or Genetically) to have a separate social status characteristic. Obviously the main one is specific to the Imperium/Human society. The second one is for back home.
I'll give you a weird example I'm sure you'll recognize. From Star Trek, before they eventually 'resolved' the situation, Worf definitely had two different status attributes. I'd make a guess at Social 9 (Federation Officer), and Honor 2 (Klingon Outcast).
It can sometimes be much easier for someone to gain status with a foreign culture than their own, it just depends on how that status is gained.
Some reasons why this might be: One culture uses an inherited status, while another one is a meritocracy. Perhaps one culture has a taboo or otherwise looks poorly on something (red hair, female, musician, doctor) while another culture couldn't care less, or even cherishes it.
Of course, this can go both ways. "Boy, I don't give a space weavils nethers that your dad was the fricking king of some podunk island on a backwater barbarian planet that doesn't even know what electricity is! I'm in charge here, not you, and if you come into engineering again, or try to give orders to me or my men just one more time, I'm going to teach you how to do the deep space backstroke without a vacc-suit! "
I'll give you a weird example I'm sure you'll recognize. From Star Trek, before they eventually 'resolved' the situation, Worf definitely had two different status attributes. I'd make a guess at Social 9 (Federation Officer), and Honor 2 (Klingon Outcast).
It can sometimes be much easier for someone to gain status with a foreign culture than their own, it just depends on how that status is gained.
Some reasons why this might be: One culture uses an inherited status, while another one is a meritocracy. Perhaps one culture has a taboo or otherwise looks poorly on something (red hair, female, musician, doctor) while another culture couldn't care less, or even cherishes it.
Of course, this can go both ways. "Boy, I don't give a space weavils nethers that your dad was the fricking king of some podunk island on a backwater barbarian planet that doesn't even know what electricity is! I'm in charge here, not you, and if you come into engineering again, or try to give orders to me or my men just one more time, I'm going to teach you how to do the deep space backstroke without a vacc-suit! "
barasawa said:
Which of course raises an interesting point. If a character has a high SOC, presumably this indicates an Imperial not Local rank. What impact might this have on homeworld Tech Level, since homeworld in this sense might merely mean Fief or "Area Your Daddy Was Ruling". Currently the background skill rules don't really allow for someone being educated off-world, but maybe it should be an option.
And re: the thread subject, I guess give your game as much complexity as you want. I played a city-based D&D game once where the GM created a complex matrix of standings for each character with all of the main factions. I think this sort of thing is a great idea if you're playing a high Diplomacy type of game. If you're going for a more exploratory or military style, then the single SOC stat is probably all you need.
Although the experience of the game I'm currently in, where one of the PCs is a high SOC noble who has decided that its his role to bring civilisation to the natives of every world - via tiffin, correct table manners and regular top-ups of champagne - has coloured my view of Social Standing as a characteristic for the rest of eternity, I fear!
Supergamera
Mongoose
What about giving every species Charisma, and make SOC a skill? That would separate basic interpersonal relations from the more "don't you know who I am?" applications that status would enable. It also works to separate the charming, low class rogue from the socially awkward noble.
phild said:
In the example I gave where the primitive was being yelled at, the inferred situation was as follows: The primitive is a noble on his world, a world that probably isn't recognized by the Imperium. So he's used to getting his way and giving orders. Of course, in the Imperium, that rank isn't recognized, and without something else to back him up, he's a low ranked social plebe.
The person yelling at him, (captain?, chief engineer?) IS a citizen of the Imperium, probably with a SOC above 7. (Benefits of Rank) He outranks the kid in multiple ways, including knowing enough not to endanger everyones lives by doing something really stupid like sticking a sharp piece of metal in the case of a machine for some stupid reason. He has no qualms about protecting his people from what he sees as a bossy ignorant lowlife that refuses to follow orders.
The reason I added that little bit of story telling was because I (and some others) were mostly talking about someone having an Imperial rank (SOC) higher than their native (CHA, CAS, etc) one. So the obvious counterpoint was one where the Native rank was higher than the Imperial one, and some possible repercussions on character actions/expectations.
phild said:
Nothing really. Your SOC isn't defined by your worlds TECH. And although there can be local variations, it still doesn't change the planetary UWP. Of course, if your world isn't recognized by the Imperium (either a member of the Imperium, or has Treaties guaranteeing your status) your social rank back home isn't worth squat to anyone in the Imperium, other than novelty value.
I hope you not only got a giggle out of it, but that it also sparked some ideas.
barasawa said:
No, but there is actually an inherent relationship at the higher level. In "vanilla" Traveller, SOC represents your standing in the Imperium. If you have a noble-level SOC it suggests you are, or are closely related to, an Imperial Noble. And the Imperium, at its heart, is a Tech 15 society. Would the Imperium leave a character with Social of 13+ to be limited to the technology level of their nominal homeworld? It seems unlikely...
