(Ahem) Rulebook Update
- Thread starter MongooseMatt
- Start date
chaoschild
Mongoose
Depends whether you mean multi-player with more than one player on each side or a multi-player free-for-all.
If there's 2 sides with more than one player on one or more sides then each side gets credits equal to 40% of the opposing side's total cost, this is then split equally between the allied forces.
If it's a free-for-all then each force gets 40% of the largest individual force that they're facing. So the largest force would get 40% of the second-largest's cost while everyone else would get 40% of the largest's cost.
At least that's how I'm planning on running things. I'm open to suggestions.
If there's 2 sides with more than one player on one or more sides then each side gets credits equal to 40% of the opposing side's total cost, this is then split equally between the allied forces.
If it's a free-for-all then each force gets 40% of the largest individual force that they're facing. So the largest force would get 40% of the second-largest's cost while everyone else would get 40% of the largest's cost.
At least that's how I'm planning on running things. I'm open to suggestions.
Winged_Human
Mongoose
What if you're the one with the highest gang rating and your opponent adds Mercs. Should you get 40% of the Pre or Post Merc value?
IMO, It should be 40% of whatever value you start the game with.
IMO, It should be 40% of whatever value you start the game with.
chaoschild
Mongoose
If you take 40% of the value, including mercenaries, then you've basically got the same situation you have at the moment. The bigger force is effectively getting 40% of their own value (or as near as makes no difference) assuming that the smaller force spends close to their full allowance on mercenaries.
My main concern in this whole thing has been game balance. I've just come off playing a long Necromunda campaign that wound up imploding because so many players dropped out because they just couldn't keep up with the leading gangs. We saw the bigger gangs (mine included) getting bigger and the smaller gangs getting trampled, to the extent where the games were just no fun for anyone involved. There has to be some way to stop the biggest forces from just growing unchecked, and limiting the credits earned like this seems to be the most straightforward and logical way of doing it but it will only work if mercenaries aren't included in the totals.
Plus, it works from a fluff point of view as well. I don't see the forces earning credits directly from the result of the fight, but rather from the increased renown that they get as a result of the victory. If everybody knows that the gang from Julian Clary block are pushovers then you're not going to get much added street cred from doing them over, no matter how many extra guns they've brought in for the fight.
My main concern in this whole thing has been game balance. I've just come off playing a long Necromunda campaign that wound up imploding because so many players dropped out because they just couldn't keep up with the leading gangs. We saw the bigger gangs (mine included) getting bigger and the smaller gangs getting trampled, to the extent where the games were just no fun for anyone involved. There has to be some way to stop the biggest forces from just growing unchecked, and limiting the credits earned like this seems to be the most straightforward and logical way of doing it but it will only work if mercenaries aren't included in the totals.
Plus, it works from a fluff point of view as well. I don't see the forces earning credits directly from the result of the fight, but rather from the increased renown that they get as a result of the victory. If everybody knows that the gang from Julian Clary block are pushovers then you're not going to get much added street cred from doing them over, no matter how many extra guns they've brought in for the fight.
Seems like a well thought out argument, Chaoschild, and one I think I agree with. I'm anxious to hear Winged Human's thoughts, though, as I know he tends to play from the point of the "bigger" gang.
I've had some problems with that, too, with my Lone Vigilante. At some point, I out-levelled all the other gangs and he was almost unstoppable, so, sometimes, it's not fun being the top-dog, especially when I just keep being the top dog (baring any poor injury roles, of course).
-Ken
I've had some problems with that, too, with my Lone Vigilante. At some point, I out-levelled all the other gangs and he was almost unstoppable, so, sometimes, it's not fun being the top-dog, especially when I just keep being the top dog (baring any poor injury roles, of course).
-Ken
Winged_Human
Mongoose
The problem with the larger gang taking 40% of the lower gang's rating minus mercenaries puts the higher gang at a double disadvantage.
Firstly, levels only increase a hero's value by 25pts. This in and of itself is a major problem. Since in a zombie gang, one zombie = 1 level +5 credits. And we ALL know that one level on ANY hero will make more of a difference than ANY minion will.
Secondly, The larger gang not only is putting more of his gang in harms way, but to also allow his opponent to take "free mercenaries" that won't need to be paid if they die during the match, while forcing the larger opponent to take a MUCH smaller payout IMO it makes a double whammy.
Let's take an example shall we?
Gang A is worth 1000 credits, Gang B is worth 500 credits. Before the game starts Gang B will buy 500 pts of Mercenaries. Now during the match both Gangs suffer the same amount of wounds. So Gang A loses 500 credits worth of his gang, and Gang B loses 500 credits (all mercenaries).
Now post game Gang A only has 500 credits worth of a gang and only 200 credits to replenish. While Gang B is still at full strength and has 400 Credits to add onto his gang.
Now, Let's run it with my scenario.
Same gangs and points values, same outcome of the gang. But now both gangs are at 500credits with 400 credits to replenish/upgrade.
Now, all that being said, when this new book comes out I may change my mind as there will be alot of other factors that will balance out the other aspects of the game.
Firstly, levels only increase a hero's value by 25pts. This in and of itself is a major problem. Since in a zombie gang, one zombie = 1 level +5 credits. And we ALL know that one level on ANY hero will make more of a difference than ANY minion will.
Secondly, The larger gang not only is putting more of his gang in harms way, but to also allow his opponent to take "free mercenaries" that won't need to be paid if they die during the match, while forcing the larger opponent to take a MUCH smaller payout IMO it makes a double whammy.
Let's take an example shall we?
Gang A is worth 1000 credits, Gang B is worth 500 credits. Before the game starts Gang B will buy 500 pts of Mercenaries. Now during the match both Gangs suffer the same amount of wounds. So Gang A loses 500 credits worth of his gang, and Gang B loses 500 credits (all mercenaries).
Now post game Gang A only has 500 credits worth of a gang and only 200 credits to replenish. While Gang B is still at full strength and has 400 Credits to add onto his gang.
Now, Let's run it with my scenario.
Same gangs and points values, same outcome of the gang. But now both gangs are at 500credits with 400 credits to replenish/upgrade.
Now, all that being said, when this new book comes out I may change my mind as there will be alot of other factors that will balance out the other aspects of the game.
Is that in the fairly extreme situation you outline this would indeed be a problem.
However - wounds taken in a game are not auto kills?
Is it not more likely both sides will suffer cassulties to their actual members?
However if Gang B plays well enough that he manages to not suffer even a single wound on his gang proper but still wipes out half of his opposition then perhaps the rewards are about right?
Also he deserves kudos for making sure every single merc he has employed gets killed so he does not have to pay them - once you factor in that some are likely to survive then player B's profit becomes much smaller if anything?
However - wounds taken in a game are not auto kills?
Is it not more likely both sides will suffer cassulties to their actual members?
However if Gang B plays well enough that he manages to not suffer even a single wound on his gang proper but still wipes out half of his opposition then perhaps the rewards are about right?
Also he deserves kudos for making sure every single merc he has employed gets killed so he does not have to pay them - once you factor in that some are likely to survive then player B's profit becomes much smaller if anything?
chaoschild
Mongoose
I've got to agree with Da Boss. Even if force A was wiped out on the tabletop, on average they'd lose 30% of their minions and wouldn't necessarily lose any of their heroes (depending on injury rolls, the damage caused on the final hits etc). I'd estimate that the total cost to rebuild the force would be about 250-300 creds, they'd have 200 creds to rebuild and frankly losing 100 creds overall seems like a fair punishment for being tactically inept and/or stubborn enough to get yourself wiped out like that.
Winged_Human said:
This is a factor to consider.
However, having given this a great deal of thought, I think we will come down on the side of the smaller forces - with the idea that the larger forces are big enough and ugly enough to look after themselves!
We will implement this idea of 40% of your opponent's force, pre-mercenaries.
Greg Smith said:
He gets to use it - now clarified in the rulebook.
WereRogue said:
You do - now clarified in the rulebook.
WereRogue said:
He can (even the advanced stuff, so long as it is to offset an injury) - now clarified in the rulebook.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
Some good points about robots and Will based talents were raised on another thread.
To summarise: robots with stealth talents are super stealthy, because they always win Will rolls. Does the rule change from block war apply - the fluff part of the wording seems to indicate it is for spotting not sneaking.
Robots always escape from combat with Hit & Run.
Robots with Surgeon always succeed.
If a robot has Die Harder it is immortal - although it has a number of useless talents along the way.
A Robot is immune to Punisher double pistol effects.
A robot will never be knocked down by a Shield Bash.
As a further point: how does will work with robot mercenaries? The 'You'll never take us alive human' rule applies to Renegade Robots, but not to robot mercenaries who have no will score.
To summarise: robots with stealth talents are super stealthy, because they always win Will rolls. Does the rule change from block war apply - the fluff part of the wording seems to indicate it is for spotting not sneaking.
Robots always escape from combat with Hit & Run.
Robots with Surgeon always succeed.
If a robot has Die Harder it is immortal - although it has a number of useless talents along the way.
A Robot is immune to Punisher double pistol effects.
A robot will never be knocked down by a Shield Bash.
As a further point: how does will work with robot mercenaries? The 'You'll never take us alive human' rule applies to Renegade Robots, but not to robot mercenaries who have no will score.
Another thing I am not totally clear about is about Judges and Arrest checks?
A number of models are immune to this - but does the Judge still have to attempt the roll before he guns them down. I assume not but it does not actually say they don't have to proceed with the attempt?
A number of models are immune to this - but does the Judge still have to attempt the roll before he guns them down. I assume not but it does not actually say they don't have to proceed with the attempt?
chaoschild
Mongoose
Da Boss said:
So yes, Judges still need to make an arrest check even if the player knows that the target will automatically pass the test.Rulebook said:
This rule could do with a little extra clarification though, possibly in Block War to highlight other targets that do not need to be arrested. Right now Judges have to arrest demonic entities, and may actually succeed. :twisted:
chaoschild
Mongoose
Greg Smith said:
Block War said:
The wording of this would mean that it applies whether the robot is hiding or seeking.
Greg Smith said:
Surgeon = advanced programming, so I guess this works.
The Die Harder issue has been raised elsewhere and there hasn't been an answer that I'm aware of. Personally I think this would work if the "Sneaky Does It" amendment applies here as well, but that would need a rules amendment.
Punisher and Shield Bash could both represent the target diving for cover (I'm stretching a bit here). Hit & Run, I dunno.
Greg Smith said:
msprange said:
So anything that applies to renegade robots, including will, now applies to all mercenaries.
Greg Smith
Mongoose
chaoschild said:
Maybe Robots should have a will stat. And then make the 'You'll never take us alive...' rule as they never fail WTF and can't be affected by Psi powers that require a will roll.
