Again, Dangerous Empty Hex Jumps.......

[captainjack23]

I'm hoping that this is a safer time to bring up an old chestnut for discussion - empty hex jumps - and see if peoples thoughts on them have developed or changed.

Here's an edited and mildly rewritten version of a post I made quite a while back to start the current discussion.

Introduction:

Jumping into, (or out of) a hex with no system, is it possible/not possible ? if so, how is it done; if not, why ? If its possible and not done, why not ?




My impression of this is that one can jump from anywhere, and end up anywhere -except within 100d of a biggish mass.

So, while simple time in transit suggests that one tries to jump as close as possible to the departure and arrival targets, there are lots of reasons why one would not want to do so. First is stealth - jumping in far away from a planet makes one less noticable, jump flash or no; and theoretically, the same applies to jumping out.

Howvever, stealth aside, one of the main reasons to jump into empty space is obviously to cross a gap larger than the jump drive one is using. The current round of rules is (IIRC) explicit in not disallowing this (how's that for a weasle phrase? ). So, other than the limits of fuel and general endurance, is there any reason to suppose that a jump three across an empty hex is any different from three 1 hex jumps ?

For me, the main argument there is some difference between stellar and non-stellar jumps is found in the Terran wars period, where a distance of jump three is an insurmountable barrier before J-3 technology is developed. The starmaps (Just about any version of traveller showing Sol, up to and including Imperium) show numerous opportunities for jump 1 ships to penerate into the interior, past the choke points that 'historically' blocked such moves. Perhaps scouts did, but clearly no fleets or even reasonably big individual ships did this. So....why didn't they ?

G:IW suggests that in that period, all jumps had to be from one star (large mass) to another; BUT, historically, the Vilani were able to spread to lots of places with Jump 1 drives across 2+ Parsec gaps. Lots of them. Quite a few of the races they .....courteously absorbed..... cannot be reached by J-1 without multiple EHJs. And later empty space jumps are in canon. So what was the big deal ?

Simple answer: canon is inconsistent, give it up. Go home, drink beer.
Slightly more complicated answer: IW isn't really traveller, it's GURPS traveller. Imperium isn't really traveller, either; its just a game. Go home, drink beer, play GURPS, play imperium.

My response: where's the fun in either ? The metagame in traveller OTU studies is to try to make it work out... So, lets try that. Shall we agree that GURPS IW is included for the sake of this discussion and go from there ?

...okay, your thoughts. And discussion. Who uses em ? Who doesn't ? Why ? Anyone....anyone ? Bueller ?

 

[BP]

Not sure I see the issue here...

Nothing seems to prevent jumping into system free space - infact one need not worry about 100D limits in that situation, so an emergency jump to avoid otherwise certain death is a viable reason in and of itself (and nothing says one can't do a J-1 from a J-3 ship in this circumstance - so one has fuel to get elsewhere).

With drop tanks this would even seem a reasonable assumption.

Besides transisting greater distances and providing for safer emergency rapid jumps, this could also be used as a delaying tactic or misdirection.

As for historical issues - a past J-3 limit would be easy to accommodate - since there would be limits imposed by lack of jump fuel at one's destination, encounters with foriegn forces, and focus on internal affairs - the same reasons that the 3I doesn't expand to fill the galaxy...

 

[GamerDude]

The debate was someone quoting GURPS Traveller:Interstellar Wars, where it said that "empty hex jumps 'couldn't' be done", and the person was claiming everything GT PRE-Stephon Assassination was OTU (conflicting what Marc and even Steve Jackson Games said about it all being ATU).

So the question is, do pilots need a singularity/gravity well to jump to, or can they jump to a set of coordinates where there isn't anything with a significant gravity field.

I say yes, because everything is a jump to coordinates. Gravity, as I understand it, travels at the speed of light... well fluctuations in a gravity field do. and stars move (as I understand it) so trying to target something by gravity well is more difficult than targeting coordinates on a galactic grid.

My 0.02 Cr

 

[rust]

a) The Vilani used empty hex jumps during the expansion of their empire.

b) After a series of accidents during empty hex jumps the Vilani abando-
ned the empty hex jumps.*

c) When the Terrans started their expansion, they adhered to Vilani safety
procedures and did not use empty hex jumps.**

d) After the return of some starships that had misjumped into empty he-
xes the Terrans realised that empty hex jumps are possible and less dan-
gerous than assumed by the Vilani.

* This could have had many causes, from bugs in the Vilanis' standard as-
trogation software to problems with a newly introduced type of jump grid.

** The Terrans did not have many starships, so to risk them with empty
hex jumps considered too dangerous by the far more experienced Vilani
would not have been prudent.

 

[Sturn]

This is just something I've used to help consolidate all of the apparent contradictions for myself:

At TL 9, it is very difficult to jump to an empty hex. A mass of some sort is needed to be a target of the jump or a near-automatic misjump occurs. As jump technology and understanding increased, the ability to jump to empty hexes became slowly easier to the point there was little or no extra danger by TL 15.

This allows early OTU empty hex jumps to be possible when needed in the OTU timeline, but still leaves a good reason for them not to be attempted. It also allows the later 3I to freely use empty jump hexes without contradicting the early history of the OTU.

 

[Vile]

This is assuming a Third Imperium background, right? Because I don't think there is anything in the MGT rules which prohibits empty hex jumps (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong).

I have never worried too much about 3I canon even when I still ran games in that setting, that square peg has just got too many continuity errors to try to fit it into a neat round hole.

 

[alex_greene]

Those hexes may be empty, but there's nothing to say that there's nothing in them - or that a ship cannot jump to any part of that hex other than the 100 diameter limit from the mainworld.

Commercial ships would likely stick to occupied hexes, and to coordinates which would bring them to within 100 planetary diameters of mainworlds, simply as a matter of commercial necessity. The markets are on the mainworlds, not out in the deep void.

Non-commercial vessels, including military ships, scout fleets and of course Traveller vessels, don't have to stick to established Jumping patterns, and could visit empty hexes, or empty parts of occupied hexes, as they see fit.

A picket ship such as the Watchdog class (Traders & Gunboats), for instance, might park itself out on a system's Kuiper belt, monitoring all in-system comm and vehicular traffic from a safe distance. Let's say that Watchdog-class parked itself just outside the system's heliopause, on the very border of interstellar space; theoretically it could be classed as "jumping into an empty hex."

I'll leave it to the Referee and players to imagine why Travellers should need to get their hands on a surplus Watchdog-class picket monitor to spy at a distance on a specific star system ...

 

[CosmicGamer]

Some questions to help clarify what the issue is.
1) Is it possible to navigate and jump into an empty hex?
2) Is it possible to navigate and jump out of an empty hex?
3) Are you asking about methods of gathering or carrying enough fuel to travel through empty hexs?

1) I don't see any reason that this is not possible

2) Why not? Perhaps some people might consider if the astrogation check should be a little harder since there is nothing nearby to help orientate your position? Not that you would missjump, but a greater chance to not come out exactly where you want within the target system.

3) During the time of exploration across vast distances with only J1 ability, I would assume these exploration ships were designed for maximum fuel capacity and not cargo and passenger capacity. I'm actually surprised the Type S is designed with so much cargo space instead of spare fuel for at least an extra J1.


Now my own questions
A) Are empty hexs really empty, or just not occupied (by people or bases or whatnot)?
B) Charts show all non empty hexes as 'occupied' locations with people, star ports, bases and whatever else. So are there no undeveloped systems, no hexes with stars that don't have major items?
C) One parsec is 3.26 light years. Does anyone have information on the typical density of stars?

According to my interpretation of the Core book, and I don't believe there is another world gen system yet for MGT, World creation (and therefore charted space) is for only certain items that are contained in a stellar system. It does not include all hexes with stars, including things such as a star with a few icy comets racing around.

 

[BP]

IMTU ships jump into empty space - not empty hexes

 

[ScottyG]

In my OTU campaigns empty hexes have always been permissable as jump destinations, the primary reason that traffic avoids them is that generally void space offers no opportunity to refuel, which in a nutshell indicates why most traffic would avoid ending a jump there.

As I recall one of the older GW products ( I think it may have been the first Zhodani book?) gave rules for scanning empty hexes for the presence of gas giants, comets and other potential fuel sources.

Other canon materials (please forgive my vagueness as to specific books but I've never really been a grognard) have referred to Naval or others placing fuel caches in empty hexes to support exploration, military excercises or access to isolated systems.

To my simple 'its a game, play it, drink beer, sleep' mentality that kinda works.

ScottyG

 

[Sturn]

For those that do play in an OTU and also care that their rules don't contradict historical occurences, it becomes a matter of discussion. If you aren't playing in the OTU or don't mind the minor contradictions, of course all of this means nothing. The reason it has been discussed many times are for those that play in an OTU and have had these questions come up from themselves or a player.

For example: In the OTU Terra was land locked with only Jump-1 technology. There is no system within Jump-1 of Terra. For over a century, Terra did not contact another star system (until a waypoint was set up half-way to Barnard). In the 3rd Imperium deep space jumps are a common and accepted tool. So, inevitably a player may ask why was Terra land-locked? In a century they didn't think about building a ship that carried enough fuel to make two jump-1's? So, the matter has been discussed for years with fans (and even Gurps) creating their own reasons such as those posted above.

Playing in an ATU or don't give a darn about these finer points, then of course it's not an issue for you. But for some it is.

 

[Vile]

Oh, yeah. In the OTU it's simple: The guy who wrote about empty hex jumps not being possible didn't read the stuff by the other guy who wrote that they were.

Back to the beer & dice! :lol:

 

[AndrewW]

Note Reft Sector allows empty hex jumps for ships accompanied by fuel tankers to refuel and enable another jump. No reason that they couldn't be made without such fuel tankers as well. Also allows jumps to a way station. just ways to cross a void if you don't have a high enough jump drive to do it in a single jump.

 

[captainjack23]

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions; and Stern, thanks for pointing out why some do like to discus it- very good summary of the "meta-analysis" issue.

We're approaching it with some of the suggestions, and I admit it may be unsolveable -but the point here is that its fun to try to resolve it. Consider it to be us role-playing OTU scientists and historians; a metagame which has always been popular in Traveller, and most RPGs of any genre with a developed backstory.

I'm pretty well aware that its boring for many, and doesn't provide any but a fictional answer to a hypothetical problem; but then again, so is killing an Orc and stealing his pie when your character has to complete the quest for a pie adventure....

So, a few answers.

1. Yes, this is entirely a third imperium issue, though it comes up to some extent (usually minor) in any setting using the default MGT jump rules.

2. The rules in MGT are, as far as I can tell, silent on the subject -which I read as "it is allowed". That one may not have a refueling source is a problem, but one that can be dealt with in a variety of ways. The above is consistent with most of the previous versions of traveller rules about jumping -and in some cases, such as in CT, its explicitly allowed (ref the Traveller adventure, and some other stuff)

3. The question arises from the pseudo history of the OTU/3I setting; specifically, in both the backstory for Imperium, and in GURPS Interstellar wars. In the former, jump is implicitly constrained to star/star jumps by the layout of the board, and the progress of the war. Similalry, in IW, the limit is there, and is explicit: in that period, only stellar masses could be used as jump points. later, some new math or technology changed things. Well and good.

4. The problem arises when considering the fact that the Vilanii had to have some capacity to cross empty hexes, in some cases quite a few, with only a jump 1 capacity.

If the capacity existed, even if it was demed unsafe, why wasn;t it used to beat terra -the inability of the vilanii to get directly at earth was the key to terran survival, and then victory. Later, the ability to make J3 was key to terran victories. One can also argue that the maintainance of the vilanii empire was only possible given chokepoints around J1 routes.

So, here is the issue for me: any answer needs to account for why it was possible at a much earlier period, and a later one, but not during the period when its effects were absolutely crucial to the pseudohistory. Even if it was very very risky, there were times in the war when both sides could have neded the war decisiively in one swoop by using empty hex jumps, and likely, from their veiwpoint, saved both their society and innumerable lives.

Here's the other condition I have for it: it shouldn't be that one or the other were boneheads and never thought of it. I hate those kind of stories where the goodies win because the baddies never think to bring a gun to a knife fight......


More later, I hope, if there is interest.

 

[RandyT0001]

Thanks for the thoughts and suggestions; and Stern, thanks for pointing out why some do like to discus it- very good summary of the "meta-analysis" issue.

We're approaching it with some of the suggestions, and I admit it may be unsolveable -but the point here is that its fun to try to resolve it. Consider it to be us role-playing OTU scientists and historians; a metagame which has always been popular in Traveller, and most RPGs of any genre with a developed backstory.

I'm pretty well aware that its boring for many, and doesn't provide any but a fictional answer to a hypothetical problem; but then again, so is killing an Orc and stealing his pie when your character has to complete the quest for a pie adventure....

So, a few answers.

1. Yes, this is entirely a third imperium issue, though it comes up to some extent (usually minor) in any setting using the default MGT jump rules.

2. The rules in MGT are, as far as I can tell, silent on the subject -which I read as "it is allowed". That one may not have a refueling source is a problem, but one that can be dealt with in a variety of ways. The above is consistent with most of the previous versions of traveller rules about jumping -and in some cases, such as in CT, its explicitly allowed (ref the Traveller adventure, and some other stuff)

3. The question arises from the pseudo history of the OTU/3I setting; specifically, in both the backstory for Imperium, and in GURPS Interstellar wars. In the former, jump is implicitly constrained to star/star jumps by the layout of the board, and the progress of the war. Similalry, in IW, the limit is there, and is explicit: in that period, only stellar masses could be used as jump points. later, some new math or technology changed things. Well and good.

4. The problem arises when considering the fact that the Vilanii had to have some capacity to cross empty hexes, in some cases quite a few, with only a jump 1 capacity.

If the capacity existed, even if it was demed unsafe, why wasn;t it used to beat terra -the inability of the vilanii to get directly at earth was the key to terran survival, and then victory. Later, the ability to make J3 was key to terran victories. One can also argue that the maintainance of the vilanii empire was only possible given chokepoints around J1 routes.

So, here is the issue for me: any answer needs to account for why it was possible at a much earlier period, and a later one, but not during the period when its effects were absolutely crucial to the pseudohistory. Even if it was very very risky, there were times in the war when both sides could have neded the war decisiively in one swoop by using empty hex jumps, and likely, from their veiwpoint, saved both their society and innumerable lives.

Here's the other condition I have for it: it shouldn't be that one or the other were boneheads and never thought of it. I hate those kind of stories where the goodies win because the baddies never think to bring a gun to a knife fight......

Captainjack, there is only one person that can solve your paradox. Send an email direct to Marc Miller. Ask him. He was there at GDW when this backstory was created.

 

[rust]

Even if it was very very risky, there were times in the war when both sides could have neded the war decisiively in one swoop by using empty hex jumps, and likely, from their veiwpoint, saved both their society and innumerable lives.

... or lost an entire fleet, and thereby perhaps the war, without doing any
harm at all to the enemy.

This kind of all or nothing gamble is quite rare in military history, few com-
manders ever did it except in truly desperate circumstances.

Think of WWI, when certain nations refused to send their battle fleets into
action although a successful operation might have changed the course of
the war. But instead of risking a battle in the hope to win it and then be
able to interrupt Allied supply lines, the risk to lose and have the fleets
destroyed led to the bizarre outcome that these fleets did not take part
in the war until the nations who owned them were forced to surrender.

And even if you take the risk and succeed, you cannot be sure what you
will find at the target system, and whether you will win the battle there.
Therefore you should have an exit strategy, and this would require suf-
ficient fuel for a second empty hex jump back to a fuel depot in the emp-
ty hex. Since the winner of the battle will hardly allow the loser to refuel
before the retreat, you would need ships with lots of fuel reserves for an
operation like this.

So you have the potential risk of two empty hex jumps, plus the need
for a veritable fleet of tankers ...

If I had to plan an operation of that kind, I would probably give it the co-
dename Market Garden. :wink:

 

[Sturn]

Well said Rust.

I can imagine a Vilani Captain explaining to his Admiral after such a failed mission that he had thought they had tried for a jump too far.

 

[AndrewW]

I can imagine a Vilani Captain explaining to his Admiral after such a failed mission that he had thought they had tried for a jump too far.

Operation market galaxy?

 

[captainjack23]

Captainjack, there is only one person that can solve your paradox. Send an email direct to Marc Miller. Ask him. He was there at GDW when this backstory was created.

....you don't have to yell :?

besides, what makes you think I didn't ? or that the biggest part happened when IW adopted the history, sans Marc ?

 

[Vile]

Rather than going through this whole thing for the umpteenth time, how about starting off by researching all previous discussions of the issue and listing each of the "solutions" which have been proposed previously?

Then organise them into a D66 table and roll for the winner.