Adventure-Class Ships

But in modern travel a Sea Voyage vs. an Air Voyage is an option. In the analogy the interstellar voyage is analogous to the Sea Voyage and is the ONLY OPTION, and is not simply for a long-duration pleasure cruise but the only way of getting from A to B; there is no "fast interstellar airline" analogous option.
That doesn't matter. In the 70's the only real option for intercontinental travel was the jet. But the prices then (like traveller interstellar travel) were prohibitive for the VAST majority of people even from the richest country on the planet. So that type of travel was rare for all but the wealthy. Just as interstellar travel would be left almost exclusively to the wealthy in the Trav Universe.
 
The game authors scaled that to their interstellar concept. High Passage mirrors first‑class travel, Middle Passage is standard economy, and Low Passage represents the dangerous, low‑cost options used by the desperate. ...

Interstellar travel in Traveller is costly, regulated, unequal, and status‑linked, just as international travel was when the game was created. I would argue that the analogy remains effective today because global mobility is still uneven.

TL-DR "Traveller models the world of the 1970s, not the modern budget tourism of the privileged."

So simply put:

* High Passage = High Class (Upper Class) Passage
* Middle Passage = (Upper) Middle Class Passage
* Low Passage = Lower (& LMC?) Class Passage
 
The number are in that region in all (the few) sources that give a number. That is roughly where the OTU is, the average citizen isn't very rich...
If the amount of earnings set out in the Profession Skill is any guide most people will be hard pressed to meet their monthly living expenses.
As Sigtrygg points out, the comparison isn't air travel, but all "international travel". A day trip to Tijuana, perhaps? A few hours shopping trip from Norway to Sweden? A daily commute from southern Germany to Switzerland?
So you are saying that more people will be travelling than the international air passenger rates indicate?
There are lots of interesting numbers about GDP/capita in CT Striker and TCS. Not perfect perhaps but suggesting starship crew is rather well paid.
Comparing salaries is a bit artificial though as there are built in assumptions on how work is compensated in the far future. Cash may only be part of the renumeration package for the average worker. They may live in a subsidised company archology or enclave. Ship crews living expenses are largely subsidised each month as they are on-board. The mustering out benefits are sometimes minor and that represents 4 years work. On the other hand and averagely lucky individual can save KCr50 over and above living expenses in 4 years in many careers.
Yes, that is represented in Far Trader, and why I suggested 1/1000 to 1/100 capita interstellar passages with 1/100 for capitals and hubs.
Hmm I was considering District 286 to be at the low end of the spectrum, but I confess that I haven't worked the numbers for the whole of Charted Space so I may be wrong. I was thinking in terms of Tarsus where maybe 1-10% annually travel to another system, but I was neglecting we need the passenger travel vs the population of the subsector and a few high population systems will quickly skew the numbers. Collace alone has a population of Billions and so hardly anyone leaves the system (unless it is to return home).
 
The long and short of it is, if you want this: "Welcome to the universe of Traveller! In the distant future, when humanity has made the leap to the stars, interstellar travel will be as common as international travel is today." move the decimal one to the left on all ship building prices except for arms and armor
 
That doesn't matter. In the 70's the only real option for intercontinental travel was the jet. But the prices then (like traveller interstellar travel) were prohibitive for the VAST majority of people even from the richest country on the planet. So that type of travel was rare for all but the wealthy. Just as interstellar travel would be left almost exclusively to the wealthy in the Trav Universe.
The Love Boat is in syndication, and other ships of the Princess Line handled intercontinental Cruises.
They weren't the only company.
Clearly, the jet was NOT the only real option. It was simply the fastest, and often cheapest, since locking the poor down in steerage stopped being a thing.
 
If the amount of earnings set out in the Profession Skill is any guide most people will be hard pressed to meet their monthly living expenses.
Quite, so where is kCr20 for an interstellar trip coming from?

So you are saying that more people will be travelling than the international air passenger rates indicate?
Yes, "international travel" is a lot more than air travel.
How many cars pass the US-Mexican and US-Canadian border every day?
The ferries between Sweden and Finland carries more than the total population per year, IIRC.


Hmm I was considering District 286 to be at the low end of the spectrum, but I confess that I haven't worked the numbers for the whole of Charted Space so I may be wrong. I was thinking in terms of Tarsus where maybe 1-10% annually travel to another system, but I was neglecting we need the passenger travel vs the population of the subsector and a few high population systems will quickly skew the numbers. Collace alone has a population of Billions and so hardly anyone leaves the system (unless it is to return home).
Far Trader says well over 100 000 passengers on a population of 2 million, mostly to/from Collace.

Collace has a million passengers on a population of a billion.

By the logarithmic nature of Far Trader low pop worlds have a larger proportion of passengers, but the vast majority of the Imperiums population lives on high pop worlds, so Collace is more representative of the Imperium as a whole.
 
All things considered, Traveller starships are remarkably cheap.

As regards passage prices, you could link them to actual operating cost plus gross profit.
 
The Imperium is not a socialist utopia with equal wealth distribution, it is a distopian capitalist authoritarian society where wealth is concentrated in the high Soc elites...
a planet with a population of billions may have a million or so very wealthy individuals, a few thousand really wealthy, and tens to hundreds of trillionaires - TL dependent of course.
I think the point of the 3I is that every world is different. The Imperium rules space, the member worlds rule themselves.
Some worlds are hellholes, some are paradises...


The classic Traveller authors were modelling interstellar movement on their perceived realities of late'70s international travel. In that era, long‑distance travel was expensive, bureaucratic, risky, and, most importantly for the setting, strongly class‑stratified. Only the middle and upper classes routinely crossed international borders, most people never left their home country, I know people who have never left their home town, and travel involved visas, paperwork, and often real physical danger.
In the '70s international tourism was already a mass market.
According to:
https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/IS.AIR.PSGR
Flight passengers in 1970 was about 300 million and double that in 1980. Half that to exclude domestic flights, that is something like 200 million passengers basically in NA and WE in 1975, on a population of perhaps half a billion or so. Much more than Traveller numbers.

In the '70s millions of North Europeans flew south to the sun, and I guess Americans too. I did, or so I have been told...
 
Quite, so where is kCr20 for an interstellar trip coming from?
Most plebs will not be travelling, but the people who are travelling will probably travelling more than once. The amount of traffic is determined by the number of trips, not the number of individuals making those trips.
Yes, "international travel" is a lot more than air travel.
How many cars pass the US-Mexican and US-Canadian border every day?
The ferries between Sweden and Finland carries more than the total population per year, IIRC.
But as other have pointed out, that is because they can.
Far Trader says well over 100 000 passengers on a population of 2 million, mostly to/from Collace.
Have you got a citation for that. I only got 50-100 thousand from the table. Tarsus gives the population closer to 3 Million, so 1.6-3.2% per year. But that is just to and from Collace. We'd need to assess the situation for every system. We can easily imagine travellers between systems 4 parsecs distant, 6 parsecs is the limit of a single jump, but it is not incredible to imagine travellers having to cover a greater distance.


Collace has a million passengers on a population of a billion.

By the logarithmic nature of Far Trader low pop worlds have a larger proportion of passengers, but the vast majority of the Imperiums population lives on high pop worlds, so Collace is more representative of the Imperium as a whole.
Whilst you may be correct that the majority of population lives on high population worlds (due to the logarithmic progression of population numbers), your conclusion is not necessarily true.

Lets assume we have a major population centre like Collace (pop 9). We would need a thousand population 6 worlds like Tarsus to just double the overall population. So with respect to the ratio of passengers to overall population they add very little to the denominator. So far so true.

However they are vastly more influential on the numerator. If we assume a simple 1 in 3 distribution of systems then within J-1 there are 2 that will add their (say) 50,000 passengers (the huge population of Collage provides a big chunk of BTN). Within J-2 there are a 12 more hexes and 4 more systems. They only add 10,000 passengers each (due to distance modifier) but that is still another 40,0000 Between J-3 and J-5 there are 72 hexes and 24 systems each adding 5,000 etc.

By the time we get 98 systems and have added barely 10% of Collace's Population to the total we are at 9 parsecs and there are 320,000 passengers a year travelling to and from Collace. After this it becomes a law of diminishing returns*.

None of the above takes into account the traffic between each of those Tarsus like worlds (which is an addition to the numerator only). BTNs between the Tarsus-like worlds will be a couple of points lower than the BTN to the Collace-like world, but the outer systems will be closer to each other than to it and after J-5 the Distance modifier effectively eliminates the extra contribution Collace-like's higher population contributes to BTN in attracting passenger traffic.

I'd need to write some clever code to work it out (and frankly if I was going to do that I'd have done it by now for the actual system of interest to me), but I think it is over 4700 combinations of trade pairs and each of those is likely to generate between 5 and 10 thousand passengers. Conservatively there are going to be several million passengers and is going to swamp the hundreds of thousands travelling between all of those systems and the Collace-like system. This tells me that the Hi-population worlds need not be the main contributor to interstellar traffic.

*With 992 systems the combined population of them all is approaching that of Collace and we getting passengers from 31 parsecs out. Each system is only contributing 50 passengers a year but there are so many are now getting half a million passengers a year in Collace from them.

The passenger traffics finally peters out at 300 parsecs (where the average drops below 1 passenger a year). Even at this low level the almost 50,000 systems between 200 and 299 are contributing almost 50,000 passengers. By this point however they are also contributing 50 Collace equivalents to the overall population. It is also difficult to accept that someone will be making a 299 parsec return journey.
 
...The Imperium is not a socialist utopia with equal wealth distribution, it is a distopian capitalist authoritarian society where wealth is concentrated in the high Soc elites...
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this is too sweeping. We know from canon over decades that the Third Imperium contains many outright communist states, socialist states, liberal democracies, feudal technocracies etc etc. The Third Imperium won't stop anyone running up the red flag and singing The International, so long as they still buy stuff and collect the right tariffs.
 
Home rules is a fiction maintained by Imperial porpoganda
The Imperial nobility and the megacorporations sit atop it all, worlds are "allowed" to govern themselves... the Imperium giveth, the Imperium taketh away if they do not get their money.
 
Home rules is a fiction maintained by Imperial porpoganda
The Imperial nobility and the megacorporations sit atop it all, worlds are "allowed" to govern themselves... the Imperium giveth, the Imperium taketh away if they do not get their money.
You forgot "IMTU"
 
Nah, that's actually what's written in published sources. It specifically states that home rule is more relaxed on the frontiers, like the spinward marches, and people think that since the spinward marches were what was detailed the most, that's how the Imperium works in general. That's not what the published material says.

But that "home rule is allowed on the Frontiers" bit also comes with the "Imperium is tired and overstretched" statements. Given that the trend of later published materials is for a more vigorous and effective Imperium, then it's likely that the home rule provisions would be on a more restrictive path.
 
You forgot "IMTU"
I'm not talking about MTU, I am talking about the universe detailed by Mongoose itself. This has been extensively discussed. The Imperium grants home rule, it allows home rule, but it leaves member worlds under no illusion that the Imperium is the ultimate authority that grants those provisions. The Imperium can decide at any time that a world is not obeying the Imperium's rules and the consequences are severe.
 
I'm not talking about MTU, I am talking about the universe detailed by Mongoose itself. This has been extensively discussed. The Imperium grants home rule, it allows home rule, but it leaves member worlds under no illusion that the Imperium is the ultimate authority that grants those provisions. The Imperium can decide at any time that a world is not obeying the Imperium's rules and the consequences are severe.
It's been extensively discussed, as you very rightly say, because some agree and some don't. You don't get extensive discussions when everyone agrees or it is beyond debate. It's your traveller universe version. It's pretty much mine. And it's some other peoples' too. But others interpret it in a variety of other ways. That's the joy of Traveller: we all get our view and some have it as a laissez-faire uptopia while some rehash WH40K grimdark and everywhere in-between.
 
It's been extensively discussed, as you very rightly say, because some agree and some don't. You don't get extensive discussions when everyone agrees or it is beyond debate. It's your traveller universe version. It's pretty much mine. And it's some other peoples' too. But others interpret it in a variety of other ways. That's the joy of Traveller: we all get our view and some have it as a laissez-faire uptopia while some rehash WH40K grimdark and everywhere in-between.
That's just saying there's no such thing as an OTU because everyone playing IMTU.
 
That's just saying there's no such thing as an OTU because everyone playing IMTU.
For elements that are open to interpretation - those which are not explicitly stated in canon - that's gloriously true! There are huge areas of everyday life that are left open to us by Traveller to interpret as we wish. Which is ace. Embrace the freedom to create!

Have you ever played in two Traveller campaigns from different GMs that were identical? That would be so boring.
 
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