Advancement in Traveller?

Gee4orce said:
I think this whole idea of characters advancing in-game goes right back to the original DnD, and it has coloured player's expectations ever since. It really is nice to have a character that improves in ability as you play it, but really can you think of any examples in literature or film where this happens during the story ?
First one that comes to mind is the TV show "Chuck".

Recently saw a new show "The Cape" where he learns several new skills from the circus people.

Literature? Sure, how about almost any biography!

Using movies and other sources that generally take place over a short time may be a poor comparison.
 
Not to the extent it happens in D&D, but think on it this way; the hobbits of Lord of the Rings started out as, in D&D terms, level 1 commoners, and they all ended up with at least a level of fighter and, in Frodo's case, a level of rogue. Merry and Pippin were both knights by the end. They'd have never have survived the events of the Scouring had they not improved.

On the other hand, the events in question take several months, so...
 
DFW said:
hector said:
Merry and Pippin were both knights by the end.

Knighthood is an awarded status and has zip to do with gaining abilities...

That depends on the era and order more than anything. I may be simply a political reward, even a purchased one, or as in many cases it may actually require the recipient to have shown the qualities required, i.e. gaining and proving certain qualities and skills. Both in RealLife and games.
 
far-trader said:
That depends on the era and order more than anything. I may be simply a political reward, even a purchased one, or as in many cases it may actually require the recipient to have shown the qualities required, i.e. gaining and proving certain qualities and skills. Both in RealLife and games.

"abilities required" isn't 'abilities gained'.

So, give an example of "depends on the era and order more than anything" that meets the criteria of "gaining new abilities as a requirement to being knighted"...
 
Gee4orce said:
... but really can you think of any examples in literature or film where this happens during the story ?
Sorry, but there are lots of examples in literature, almost every "hero's
journey" includes learning new skills. If you want a most obvious exam-
ple, just think of Harry Potter, but both high fantasy and science fiction
also have a "learning hero" as a rather common type of protagonist.
 
Gee4orce said:
... but really can you think of any examples in literature or film where this happens during the story ?
I can think of many, many examples:
Luke Skywalker (farmboy to Jedi)
Anakin Skywalker (slave to Sith Lord)
Rand al'Thor (farmboy to Dragon Reborn)
Garion/Belgarion (farmboy to god-slaying wizard king)
Taran of Caer Dalban (assistant pig-keeper to High King)
Samwise Gamgee (gardener to honored rinbgearer and Mayor of the Shire)
Gandalf (from the Grey to the White)
Vin (street rat to world's greatest assassin to living god - briefly)
Neville Longbottom (indifferent student to the guy who destroyed Voldemort's last horcrux - while on fire)
Edmond Dantes (student to the Count of Monte Cristo)
The Pevensies (children to kings and queens of Narnia)
Teela Brown (shallow know-nothing to protector-stage human)
Honor Harrington (from commander of a minor ship admiral)
Jack Aubrey (from fresh Lieutenant to renowned Admiral of the Blue)

I could go on.
 
I have tried to make it somewhat realistic with the system I came up with. To learn a new skill at "0" level would take about 5 game sessions on average during which several in-game weeks pass in the campaign (usually half of it in hyperspace). Granted, it is a bit faster than what is gained during character generation, but I figure since the characters are now on their own, and being the protaganists in the story, they are going to be more highly motivated to be the best to increase the liklihood of achieving whatever goal drives them. In turn, the challenges and dangers to be faced will likewise become more difficult...if the characters wanted to play it safe, they wouldn't be adventurers.

Of course, there are always shortcuts, both temporary (drugs) and more permanent (augments), to improve one's character too... :twisted:
 
Character development and growth are the heart and core of good story-telling in both print and on screen.

As Traveller is in essence the story of the PCs, why shouldnt there be rules for advancement in play? They dont have to be easy, but they should allow for the learning of new skills, and the advancement of old ones.

IMTU I award one advancement point per week the characters study (this can add up pretty fast with a long succession of jumps), and one point at the end of every game session. PCs can use the advancement points to advance a skill when the total advancement points equals the total of their non 0 skill levels plus one for the new level they want to gain (minimum of 10 points. this was set both to simulate college level class length and as a balance for those rare 0-2 skill level characters), or in the case of gaining a new still at level 0, the total of their non 0 skills plus one (same 10 point minimum). And no, they dont get to skip levels.

Yeah it takes a while for older characters to learn something new, and yeah the younger ones do quickly pick up new skills, but it works well for running my game and works great for mimicking advancement found both in life (the young learn sooo fast) and in good literature and on-screen stories.
 
Cryton said:
As Traveller is in essence the story of the PCs, why shouldnt there be rules for advancement in play? They dont have to be easy, but they should allow for the learning of new skills, and the advancement of old ones.

I thought MGT had such rules.
 
DFW said:
Cryton said:
As Traveller is in essence the story of the PCs, why shouldnt there be rules for advancement in play? They dont have to be easy, but they should allow for the learning of new skills, and the advancement of old ones.

I thought MGT had such rules.

Yes, it does. Page 59 in the core rulebook. The main criteria is time to learn (and I suppose the GM would normally apply somekind of costs, if only living costs while learning a new skill, but that is all up to the GM).

Egil
 
DFW said:
hector said:
Merry and Pippin were both knights by the end.

Knighthood is an awarded status and has zip to do with gaining abilities...

Sure, but this is set in a setting where knights are expected to fight; they'd never have been knighted had they been as incapable of fighting as they were at the start of the story. Why do you think there's at least one scene in both book and film in which they're being taught how not to stab themselves in the feet? Sure, they don't become expert swordsmen, but they do become competent swordsmen, which is definitely a skill they didn't have during Bilbo's party...
 
That wasn't my question.

Can we rephrase from "ended up being knights" to "ended up with at least some competency as fighters and significantly more personal courage than they started with" and drop that one?

....Anyway.....

As Traveller is in essence the story of the PCs, why shouldnt there be rules for advancement in play? They dont have to be easy, but they should allow for the learning of new skills, and the advancement of old ones.

It does. There is a mechanic for learning new skills, the problem is that people often don't think much of it. One issue is that the speed at which you can learn new skills drops as you become more skilled at stuff (it's a function of the total number of levels of all your skills).

Okay when you're talking about learning degree-level skills (level 2 or 3) that really shape the way you think, but why a competent naval crewman (with discipline/3) should take a fortnight longer to get a reasonable level of competency with a vacc suit than his sloppier counterpart (discipline/1) escapes me...

The other problem is that training as described requires 'down time', and lots of it. Whilst the time spent in jump is one possibility (depending on the person's role on the ship), it represents a large chunk of narrative time where nothing interesting will happen, and it feels unsatisfactory that the players are essentially rewarded by gaining skills for not playing the game.
 
Don't forget that there are more "high tech" ways to learn - MGT has wafer jacks (which basically translate money into skills) and even CT mentioned using "RNA memory transfers" and other space-opera type mechanisms to get new skills. ("Whoa, I know Kung-Fu, dude!")

Studying and hard work are for chumps, not adventurers! ;)
 
locarno24 said:
The other problem is that training as described requires 'down time', and lots of it. Whilst the time spent in jump is one possibility (depending on the person's role on the ship), it represents a large chunk of narrative time where nothing interesting will happen, and it feels unsatisfactory that the players are essentially rewarded by gaining skills for not playing the game.
This is a good point. There is often criticism of people who say they want a faster/better/different mechanism for improving their character. Perhaps they just enjoy role playing their characters efforts to improve more than their financial bottom line or equipment; I believe the more typical Traveller 'rewards'?
 
There is also the Instruction skill from Mercenary.

Yes, but that has it's own problems;

1) it doesn't save you that long - 1-6 days sounds good but not when training requires a month or two.

2) It requires two checks, one for the instructor and one for the instructee

3) The number of people you can instruct is dependent on the effect of the check, making it unpredictable and quite low unless you have a very high Instruction skill

4) You can only pass on a skill you already have up to a level below your own skill, so it doesn't help the party get new skills, just spread them around

5) Beacuse of the aforementioned way learning new skills works, the need to have a high Instruction skill means that the instructor take much longer to increase his other skills than he otherwise would.


There is often criticism of people who say they want a faster/better/different mechanism for improving their character. Perhaps they just enjoy role playing their characters efforts to improve more than their financial bottom line or equipment; I believe the more typical Traveller 'rewards'?

That's the way we tend to play it. We usually find adding contacts and allies is a more interesting way of progressing a character, and it allows you to throw in additional skills at the party's disposal without them needing to go off to university for a year and a half.

For example, when my lot needed to know something about pre-imperial history in the region, rather than spending four or five months trying to develop Social Sciences (History)/1, you go and talk to Professor Beale, who is well disposed(ish) to most of the group after some work they did for him.
 
locarno24 said:
There is also the Instruction skill from Mercenary.

Yes, but that has it's own problems;

1) it doesn't save you that long - 1-6 days sounds good but not when training requires a month or two.
It's still 1-6 days - close to a week. If your skill total is somewhere around 4 or 5 then it becomes more significant.
Another question is, will your Referee let you take a -1 DM to your Instruction task roll to bump up the time increment saved, as with regular tasks?

2) It requires two checks, one for the instructor and one for the instructee
Yeah. But it's either Intelligence or Education based, so you can pick your high modifier, and even if you fail it just means you have to keep studying for another 1-6 days.

3) The number of people you can instruct is dependent on the effect of the check, making it unpredictable and quite low unless you have a very high Instruction skill
Which is a bit of a problem, yes, but does allow one-on-one tutoring with a reasonably-skilled instructor.

4) You can only pass on a skill you already have up to a level below your own skill, so it doesn't help the party get new skills, just spread them around
Hire an instructor from outside the party.

5) Beacuse of the aforementioned way learning new skills works, the need to have a high Instruction skill means that the instructor take much longer to increase his other skills than he otherwise would.
Again, not a problem if the instructor is an NPC.

Granted, Instruction isn't a high road to quick skill progression, but it is there.
 
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