Advanced education

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Where in character generation is it written at what TL your education was? Even if your planet doesn't operate at TL 15, does that necessarily mean that higher education does not cover TL15 stuff.

Frequently the benefit of more advanced technology is that it is easier to use, not harder.

Whatever world you originated on should have an education system compatible with its TL. Also there are pocket empires that are NOT TL 15 (and non OTU settings that may not be TL 15). Red Zone worlds that were never part of the Empire also wouldn't have that education level.

But even if you assume everyone has a TL 15 education what happens when you encounter that TL 25 Ancient device and need to try and figure it out?

 

[MasterGwydion]

How about EDU vs a higher TL than your education? Example you are trying to run a TL 15 Jump drive and your training and education was at TL 9? Or trying to hack a TL 15 computer security system?

Use the TL Eras for this. Based on the character's background, set a rough TL of their experiences. Check and see what Era that is. Anything of that Era is uneffected. Other Eras can get a -3 Untrained penalty due to not being familiar with the technology. This can be overcome with one or more successful Study Periods. Set however many work best in your campaign.

Just an idea.

 

[MasterGwydion]

Learning and experience is not necessarily academic learning and experience. The companion has alternate pre-education (School of hard knocks). As I said previously I have met many graduates and post graduates I could not rely on to think their way out of a paper bag. I have met plenty of old and bold craftsmen who never even progressed to secondary education who can work miracles.

I would say that you are describing the difference between INT and EDU. Low INT high EDU, can't think their way out of a paper bag. High INT low EDU, geniuses with figuring things out and doing things in clever new ways.

We don't have so many characteristics in Traveller that we can afford to make EDU overly proscriptive.

Or you go the other way and make it meaningless, just like all of the UWP digits. If you broaden the definition of anything sufficiently enough, it becomes meaningless.

Whatever the writers intended, it is what they produced that matters.

Agreed. It should be changed for that very reason.

 

[Condottiere]

Strength is pretty easy to measure.

Character generation starts off with characteristics between two and twelve.

Which begs the question, exactly what qualifies an eighteen year old to have an Education/twelve?

Or, at the other end of the spectrum, why does he have Education/two?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I would say that you are describing the difference between INT and EDU. Low INT high EDU, can't think their way out of a paper bag. High INT low EDU, geniuses with figuring things out and doing things in clever new ways.

There is also high INT high EDU who don't know how to THINK because their arrogance makes them believe that their first "thought" is always correct. Worked with such a guy, Fired for incompetence. Then again I also worked with a low INT guy (say 85 IQ) and he used it very well, he solved problems you would have thought beyond him, took him time but he got there. He also would figure out who to go to for help when it was beyond him and pick the best person. You can guess which I preferred working with.

 

[WHULorigan]

Learning and experience is not necessarily academic learning and experience. The companion has alternate pre-education (School of hard knocks). As I said previously I have met many graduates and post graduates I could not rely on to think their way out of a paper bag. I have met plenty of old and bold craftsmen who never even progressed to secondary education who can work miracles.

We don't have so many characteristics in Traveller that we can afford to make EDU overly proscriptive.

Whatever the writers intended, it is what they produced that matters.

There is a difference between EDU, INT, and earned skills. Thinking your way out of a paper bag is an INT task, not EDU. Craftsmen are using INT + Skills.

 

[swordtart]

There is a difference between EDU, INT, and earned skills. Thinking your way out of a paper bag is an INT task, not EDU. Craftsmen are using INT + Skills.

Could be, or they could be massively educated though an apprenticeship with a master craftsman but only in a single subject area. In that single area however they are still using skills they have learned (possibly with great personal effort), not just using native smarts and making it up on the fly.

CRC p60 offers us
"The main area of overlap is between INT and EDU. The former covers inspiration, improvisation and pure reasoning, while the latter is for trained responses and known solutions."

The example somewhat undermines this so it is a judgement call.

 

[FreeTrav]

There is also high INT high EDU who don't know how to THINK because their arrogance makes them believe that their first "thought" is always correct. Worked with such a guy, Fired for incompetence. Then again I also worked with a low INT guy (say 85 IQ) and he used it very well, he solved problems you would have thought beyond him, took him time but he got there. He also would figure out who to go to for help when it was beyond him and pick the best person. You can guess which I preferred working with.

This makes a good case for having another characteristic; for lack of anything better to call it, call it Wisdom (WIS). I view them more-or-less as follows:

INT represents your ability to recognize facts and put them together
EDU represents the facts you have to hand, and knowledge of the "procedures" for putting them together
WIS would represent the ability to take INT and EDU and come up with the right answer.

Someone could have high INT and EDU, and be a complete washout when it comes to actually using them. Someone else could have moderate INT and low EDU, and be more useful than the first guy because he knows how to THINK and come up with the right answers in context.

 

[Condottiere]

You could min/max characteristics, and strategize minimizing when to roll on them.

Education is fuzzier than Social Standing, since it is documented as to what it actually represents.

Like I said, what actually has an eighteen year old with Education/twelve achieved?

 

[ResslynHalvik]

How about EDU vs a higher TL than your education? Example you are trying to run a TL 15 Jump drive and your training and education was at TL 9? Or trying to hack a TL 15 computer security system?

I like the idea. Although, I graduated in Computer Science in 1980-mumble and I don't think I have significant difficulties operating in a higher TL industry now, because I have stayed up to date.
(Edit: trying to get the words in the right order!) Although I graduated in Computer Science in 1980-mumble, I think I don't think have significant difficulties operating as a skilled tech in a higher TL industry now only because I have stayed up to date.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I like the idea. Although, I graduated in Computer Science in 1980-mumble and I don't think I have significant difficulties operating in a higher TL industry now, because I have stayed up to date.

That is only 1 tech level of difference and is within the same technological era.

 

[Condottiere]

Operating tends to be more about the interface, and user friendliness.

 

[J. L. Brown]

This makes a good case for having another characteristic; for lack of anything better to call it, call it Wisdom (WIS). I view them more-or-less as follows:

INT represents your ability to recognize facts and put them together
EDU represents the facts you have to hand, and knowledge of the "procedures" for putting them together
WIS would represent the ability to take INT and EDU and come up with the right answer.

Someone could have high INT and EDU, and be a complete washout when it comes to actually using them. Someone else could have moderate INT and low EDU, and be more useful than the first guy because he knows how to THINK and come up with the right answers in context.

I prefer 'Intelligence is able to reason your way to a solution' and 'Education is the training and experience that you have accumulated' -- adding another characteristic seems less preferable than simply fixing the problem with the established equivalence between EDU & having a degree.

Trivia games are (to my mind) a great example of the difference between INT & EDU -- no amount of reasoning ability (INT) will tell you who won an Oscar for Best Picture thirty years ago. Either you are familiar with the material (EDU), or you are not.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

I like the idea. Although, I graduated in Computer Science in 1980-mumble and I don't think I have significant difficulties operating in a higher TL industry now, because I have stayed up to date.

Now imagine that 1980s you was suddenly conveyed to another world which has 2025 computers. I then hand you a tablet to hack and a micro SD card to copy the data to.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Now imagine that 1980s you was suddenly conveyed to another world which has 2025 computers. I then hand you a tablet to hack and a micro SD card to copy the data to.

Oh, indeed. I sort of got my words backwards, or missing an "only because", or something.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

Oh, indeed. I sort of got my words backwards, or missing an "only because", or something.

I wondered if that was so.

Of course that is only a 1 TL difference at most or maybe between early and late periods of 1 TL. It goes the other way too. Imagine someone who only knows Windows 11 given a C64 with tape drive and no instructions. Or maybe a Heathkit machine with a paper tape reader/punch.

 

[MasterGwydion]

I wondered if that was so.

Of course that is only a 1 TL difference at most or maybe between early and late periods of 1 TL. It goes the other way too. Imagine someone who only knows Windows 11 given a C64 with tape drive and no instructions. Or maybe a Heathkit machine with a paper tape reader/punch.

Which given how skills work in Traveller wouldn't matter much. In order to use a computer you need the Electronics skill. A skill level zero in that gets you basic knowledge of electrical circuits and such. Most people that would have the equivalent of Computer/0 today wouldn't have any knowledge of the electronics that actually go into the machine. One of the differences between reality and the Traveller skill rules. Even if you assessed a negative modifier, you could probably still hit Average Difficulty tasks without too much trouble, although you may have to use the rules for taking your time.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

There is also high INT high EDU who don't know how to THINK because their arrogance makes them believe that their first "thought" is always correct. Worked with such a guy, Fired for incompetence. Then again I also worked with a low INT guy (say 85 IQ) and he used it very well, he solved problems you would have thought beyond him, took him time but he got there. He also would figure out who to go to for help when it was beyond him and pick the best person. You can guess which I preferred working with.

As I said in my speech at a fellow academic's wedding - "[xxx] is a true academic - he approaches every problem with an open ... mouth"

 

[ottarrus]

@Saladman So why are you 'angry' at this discussion of higher education?

 

[ottarrus]

As I said in my speech at a fellow academic's wedding - "[xxx] is a true academic - he approaches every problem with an open ... mouth"

As a historian, I completely understand....