Advanced education

[rinku]

It's more a matter of expectations and averages. It's hard - but not impossible - to start pre career education with very low EDU. That might indeed means a football scholarship or nepotism. Or, especially if the character has high INT, it might be a Good Will Hunting scenario, or a character who's particularly good at entrance exams or a narrow field of study. Or cheated to get in.

To be fair, I'd expect most low EDU, high INT characters that get in are probably on a program of some kind. Places are limited, so luck plays a big part. If they're low in both but still get through somehow, start looking for edge cases.

Once enrolled, INT actually determines if they graduate.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

It would not be unrealistic to peg a bachelor degree to EDU 9+, the +1DM threshold. I'd also suggest EDU6 would usually mean a character has completed secondary education. You could, as a rule of thumb, peg Doctorates to EDU 12+. Obviously actual graduates do have the qualification regardless of EDU - this is just for what might be expected in general. But also, the odds of graduating with less than 8 EDU are fairly low.

I was thinking it might be a bit of a stretch get 3-point EDU uplift in one 4-year (char. gen.) term, but of course in general it would be the people with better first degrees who enter an advanced degree programme - while an average first degree might be equivalent to EDU 9, a better one might be EDU 10. A short programme advanced degree (what in the 21st century western world we might call a master's degree) could get you to 11, and an extended research study programme (our PhD) to 12.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

I am not sure all further education necessarily provides and EDU increase. Despite the name it is not really education but represents the ability to recall and leverage knowledge. You could have a high EDU score with no formal education and you could equally have a low score with it. I have known plenty of post-grads who immediately flounder in the workplace as they lack the ability to apply their knowledge in real world situations. They are clearly smart and can recall facts, but cannot solve problems.

Also you can add your EDU bonus to many skill checks not just for the subject you did post grad study on. Whilst some study techniques are imparted during graduate and postgraduate education, most of the time in my experience was cramming subject specific information and learning exam technique.

It's different in most of the UK now, and in the USA too, but until around a quarter of a century ago, a first degree was almost as much about learning to think and articulate as it was about the read subject. A research degree is still that, IMO - a PhD is at least as much about getting trained in how to do research as it is about getting a grounding a in in the breadth of your research area. We just do in a near sink-or-swim way way of giving the research student a narrowly focussed subject in which to demonstrate that they have learned how to that (what Jane Austen called "her little piece of ivory"). I was thinking that existing EDU is a better DM for PhD success than INT.

 

[swordtart]

Now imagine that 1980s you was suddenly conveyed to another world which has 2025 computers. I then hand you a tablet to hack and a micro SD card to copy the data to.

If you were a TL15 computer engineer, EDU would not help you with that task unless you had experience of working with ancient technology.

That would to me be a classic INT task. Where I allow INT to be used instead of EDU I also tend to increase the task time. If you know how to extract data from an SD card you can just start doing it. If you have to work it out first, it is going to take longer.

 

[swordtart]

I was thinking it might be a bit of a stretch get 3-point EDU uplift in one 4-year (char. gen.) term, but of course in general it would be the people with better first degrees who enter an advanced degree programme - while an average first degree might be equivalent to EDU 9, a better one might be EDU 10. A short programme advanced degree (what in the 21st century western world we might call a master's degree) could get you to 11, and an extended research study programme (our PhD) to 12.

It should, but in Traveller the Hons Grads only get a better chance in subsequent careers over the basic Grads, there is no EDU difference and of course it is INT that determines your level of graduation so there is no correspondence there.

Only 3% of the population have EDU of 2 and need to roll 8+ to get into the university pre-career. They still have over 40% chance to succeed.
25% of the population have EDU 3-5 and need to roll 7+ and have 58% chance to succeed.
44% have EDU 6-8 and need to roll 6+ and have 72% chance to succeed.
25% have EDU 9-11 and need 5+ and have 83% chance to succeed.
3% have EDU 12 and need 4+ and have 91% chance to succeed.

Assuming the expected spread of EDU from the 2d6 roll, 70% of Traveller Citizens can get into University in their first term based on the EDU check. This ignores the effects of SOC which pushes the numbers up. The same numbers apply to the graduation check (substituting INT) so 70% of those entering will graduate.

Most people can get into University in Traveller, that pre-career choice would be better just named Further Education. The EDU benefit will be marginal for most citizens. The real value is those two skills. For most normal citizens that might be Profession with a side order of something.

Profession-2, Admin-1 is within the grasp of 50% of the general population regardless of their starting EDU and would be a perfectly reasonable set of skills to be successful in the workplace (I would love to work with people at this level). Perhaps this should be the default for the normal NPC, just choose two skills from the University list*.

Most who start with very low EDU can at least expect it to be brought up to a level that minimises the impact. The vast Majority of EDU 2 people will end up at least moving up a modifier bracket. EDU 4-5 should break into the zero penalty band.

University in Traveller does not appear to be elitist, instead it seems to be a Universal education to prepare its citizens to be productive at 22 years old.

It may well be that Scholar is the Academic University route.

*I would probably expand that list though. Companion provides a number of alternative pre-career options, but in reality you could just add things like Broker to the the University list to cover off most mundane jobs.

 

[ottarrus]

It's different in most of the UK now, and in the USA too, but until around a quarter of a century ago, a first degree was almost as much about learning to think and articulate as it was about the read subject. A research degree is still that, IMO - a PhD is at least as much about getting trained in how to do research as it is about getting a grounding a in in the breadth of your research area. We just do in a near sink-or-swim way way of giving the research student a narrowly focussed subject in which to demonstrate that they have learned how to that (what Jane Austen called "her little piece of ivory"). I was thinking that existing EDU is a better DM for PhD success than INT.

To piggyback on that, thinking about this thread makes me think that a PhD should be more about skill acquisition [becoming 'a noted expert in your field'] and less about raising your overall EDU.
In the spirit of full disclosure, I have ADD and PTSD. This makes it very hard for me to crank out term papers. So, at age 60, I don't have a college degree of any sort. Being a US Army veteran, I joke about it saying I have 'a Masters in International Relations from BDU', 'BDU' being the Battle Dress Uniform of my era in the military and jokingly referred to as Battle Dress University.
But I'm very well read and I've got friends from every level of education from pre-school to one friend with two PhDs. What my Masters and doctorate friends tell me is that those degrees are all about focusing on one subject to the exclusion of all others. This in turn influences my opinion on this topic here.

 

[Condottiere]

It's the future, so you'd think they'd figure out how to squeeze the maximum out of teaching people.

But, since most science fiction is more projecting our current issues into a more palatable presentation, I'd say getting a Bachelor's is more about integrating the future managerial class into their expected (sub)caste(s).

 

[swordtart]

I am also noticing that very few careers are actually adversely impacted by low EDU. Ironically the career you would expect to follow from education (Scholar) has a very low requirement to remain employed and other than Physician advancement is wholly unconnected with EDU. If EDU is a measure of formal education it seems odd that the services are obsessed with it (at least from a promotion standpoint). If it is more of an ability to lean into your training (or follow process) on the other hand this makes far more sense.

 

[WHULorigan]

What my Masters and doctorate friends tell me is that those degrees are all about focusing on one subject to the exclusion of all others. This in turn influences my opinion on this topic here.

This is essentially correct and a good observation. Increasingly sophisticated degrees are about ever increasing specified focus within a field, and are probably best handled by Mods/DMs for particular field specialisations in an EDU or Academic Skill Roll.

 

[WHULorigan]

As I noted before:

INT is reasoning and inspiration (or "genius")

EDU is learning or knowledge, and generally broad based.

Skills are particular learned or trained/practiced talents

Any of them could potentially have a Mod or DM for a particular area of aptitude or specialization.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The problem as I see it is that there is a difference between attending and education Establishment and actually being educated and learning something.

You may leave with a certificate but that only proves you passed a few exams...

Edu as a characteristic should/does represent your learning to date in a quantifiable way that is broader than skills.

So
<8 school educated to 18 year old standard
8-9 what the colonials call a high school diploma, A levels
10 first degree
11 masters
12 PhD

note this represents someone who has actually learned, not just got the certificate, which the game doesn't model at all.

Once you learn to learn further study doesn't require an institution, which is why I like the raise Int to Edu possibility.

 

[Condottiere]

Let's do a little bit of time travelling.

Let's say that achieving Education/seven means you passed five examinations at Ordinary Level.

Making the recipient the most ordinary of Ordinaries.

 

[swordtart]

The problem as I see it is that there is a difference between attending and education Establishment and actually being educated and learning something.

You may leave with a certificate but that only proves you passed a few exams...

Edu as a characteristic should/does represent your learning to date in a quantifiable way that is broader than skills.

So
<8 school educated to 18 year old standard
8-9 what the colonials call a high school diploma, A levels
10 first degree
11 masters
12 PhD

note this represents someone who has actually learned, not just got the certificate, which the game doesn't model at all.

Once you learn to learn further study doesn't require an institution, which is why I like the raise Int to Edu possibility.

But again that ties EDU only to academic learning and the EDU modifier applies to all learning.

A level Physics is not general education it is the Science skill.
A degree in Mathematics is not general education it is ...err.. Science again apparently.
Think of any PhD and it won't be in "Generic Education" it will be in a specific subject and that subject will be represented in the game by a skill, a specialism or at worst Profession.

If you say PhD is EDU 12 then your PhD in Social and Anthropoloy and Gender Studies (University of Hull) gives you +2 when you make a Mechanic check to repair the coffee machine. Whereas the bloke down my garage who left school at 16 with no qualifications will suffer a penalty under that interpretation.

The only way a poorly educated mechanic could compensate for their -1 or -2 EDU penalty on the check would be by having a greater skill level and then we are forced to have garage mechanics with skill levels equivalent to international experts for them to do their job effectively.

Alternatively if you divorce EDU from academic qualifications and simply consider it the ability to effectively leverage things you have learned then the mechanic could easily be Mechanic-1. Even if he had EDU 8 he would only get +1 in the subjects he had actually studied (Mechanic in this case). It provides no bonus for Science checks and he would get the default -3 if he had no skill.

If you are using a skill that you haven't trained in then you should never get to apply the EDU bonus and instead only get to try an INT based check and only then with the referees agreement (and it should take longer since you are having to research how to solve the problem).

 

[swordtart]

Let's do a little bit of time travelling.

Let's say that achieving Education/seven means you passed five examinations at Ordinary Level.

Making the recipient the most ordinary of Ordinaries.

O' levels were not average qualifications, only about half the student population even took them (and those that did tended to take 9 or more). It was also the boundary between joining the Civil Service as an Executive grade (i.e. Manager) vs an Administrative Grade (Clerk). These were the entry requirement to A levels that were the entry requirement to Degrees.

CSE were the standard Certificate of Secondary Education (as the name implies). These relied more heavily on course work and were the entry requirement to HNDs and apprenticeships.

These all got merged into GCSEs with a much expanded grade band and the differences got blurred. University became an expectation rather than an exception and in order to operate in a larger educational "marketplace" the value of a degrees was reduced.

That is not to say students are working any less hard, under the old regime they would have been persuaded that a degree wasn't worth the struggle and that they would only achieve marginal success. A university might not grant any Firsts in a particular year, that would be unheard of now as the students themselves are paying for the education they rightfully expect to get something for their money.

Tying any stat to these grades will result in stat inflation.

As Sigtrygg points out all of these exams were simply evidence that you could pass exams (and latterly how good the school was so it could attract grants).

 

[Sigtrygg]

But again that ties EDU only to academic learning and the EDU modifier applies to all learning.

Not so, it includes everthing cultural and social you learn to date. And as I said, once yo have learned how to learn increasing your Edu and skills can be achieved through supported self study - AR, VR, even YouTube can teach you a lot if you know where to look.

I don't call myself a genius by any stretch, but I can read, and I now know enough maths to access post grad physics courses online...

not sure I understand but I can calculate ...

A level Physics is not general education it is the Science skill.

I disagree, until the skill bloat there were no science skills, such learning was subsumed within the Edu characteristic.

A degree in Mathematics is not general education it is ...err.. Science again apparently.

Again I disagree, do you track skills in reading comprhension, writing... maths is again part of Edu until the skill explosion.

Think of any PhD and it won't be in "Generic Education" it will be in a specific subject and that subject will be represented in the game by a skill, a specialism or at worst Profession.

Try getting a PhD in combat rifleman, or recon, or any of the many skills that are defined.

If you say PhD is EDU 12 then your PhD in Social and Anthropoloy and Gender Studies (University of Hull) gives you +2 when you make a Mechanic check to repair the coffee machine.

Edu represents all learning, if you have a high education you have passed the threshold to watch a YouTube video and re-build an engine...

Whereas the bloke down my garage who left school at 16 with no qualifications will suffer a penalty under that interpretation.

But will have mechanic 3....

The only way a poorly educated mechanic could compensate for their -1 or -2 EDU penalty on the check would be by having a greater skill level and then we are forced to have garage mechanics with skill levels equivalent to international experts for them to do their job effectively.

Time served garage mechanics are expert, only elitists say otherwise, its why further education colleges are often staffed by people with backgrounds in actually doing rather than just reading...
and don't forget if the garage mechanic wants to the can raise their Edu to equal Int by self study

Alternatively if you divorce EDU from academic qualifications and simply consider it the ability to effectively leverage things you have learned then the mechanic could easily be Mechanic-1. Even if he had EDU 8 he would only get +1 in the subjects he had actually studied (Mechanic in this case). It provides no bonus for Science checks and he would get the default -3 if he had no skill.

It remains an holistic characteristic in my games.

If you are using a skill that you haven't trained in then you should never get to apply the EDU bonus and instead only get to try an INT based check and only then with the referees agreement (and it should take longer since you are having to research how to solve the problem).

Again, skill training is different to Education, one of the flaws in the Mongoose and MegaTraveller and many other task systems is the artificial boundaries they put between skills and characteristics like Int and Edu - never invent a skill that is covered bu what you should already know based on education and experience...

 

[MasterGwydion]

Alternatively if you divorce EDU from academic qualifications and simply consider it the ability to effectively leverage things you have learned then the mechanic could easily be Mechanic-1. Even if he had EDU 8 he would only get +1 in the subjects he had actually studied (Mechanic in this case). It provides no bonus for Science checks and he would get the default -3 if he had no skill.

If you do this and have divorced EDU from academics and only consider it the ability to leverage things that you already learned, you will never use another stat ever again. EDU will become the default stat for all skill checks that are not Untrained.

Shoot someone? Gun Combat + EDU Why? You are leveraging things that you learned.
Pole Vaulting? Athletics + EDU Why? You are leveraging what you learned.

See how that makes all of the rest of the stats useless?

 

[Sigtrygg]

A skill represents education, experience, training, practice in a particular meta game relevant area.

It is possible to dispense with skills completely and run an entirely characteristic and prior career "experience" based game, woth situation throw DMs being based on characterists, prior rank, terms served in a manner of your devising.

 

[Condottiere]

Ordinaries aren't that difficult to pass.

But let's take an American slant.

Six to eight have no penalties, and being a seven is average, if not ordinary.

So, junior high graduate would be Education/six.

Senior high graduate Education/seven.

Junior college diploma Education/eight.

Bachelors Education/nine, bonus being that added cachet.

Masters probably don't really increase your mental capacity, just your pocketbook, so Education/ten.

Education/five is likely primary school graduate with six years of education.

Below this, that seems rather difficult to pin down.

 

[swordtart]

If you do this and have divorced EDU from academics and only consider it the ability to leverage things that you already learned, you will never use another stat ever again. EDU will become the default stat for all skill checks that are not Untrained.

Shoot someone? Gun Combat + EDU Why? You are leveraging things that you learned.
Pole Vaulting? Athletics + EDU Why? You are leveraging what you learned.

See how that makes all of the rest of the stats useless?

That was not my argument.

EDU is used if you are explaining to someone how the rifle works. DEX is used to hold your balance, steady the rifle and control your breathing to hit a target. If you have never used the rifle INT might be used to see if you can work out how it works.

See how a skill can use any stat making them all useful

 

[swordtart]

Not so, it includes everthing cultural and social you learn to date. And as I said, once yo have learned how to learn increasing your Edu and skills can be achieved through supported self study - AR, VR, even YouTube can teach you a lot if you know where to look.

I think we agree about this, but I am therefore confused why you tied it to a list of academic qualifications.

I disagree, until the skill bloat there were no science skills, such learning was subsumed within the Edu characteristic.

If you are talking about CT then the argument is different. There were fewer skills anyway and you didn't even need to roll for much of the time. I am talking about the MGT2 iteration.

Again I disagree, do you track skills in reading comprhension, writing... maths is again part of Edu until the skill explosion.

MGT2 does.

Try getting a PhD in combat rifleman, or recon, or any of the many skills that are defined.

Saying that any academic qualification can be represented by a skill is not the same as saying all skills can be represented by an academic qualification. Combat Rifleman is not a current skill, but I suspect there is a badge in the US military that has a formal set of qualification requirements that is an equivalent.

Edu represents all learning, if you have a high education you have passed the threshold to watch a YouTube video and re-build an engine...

We are in agreement on this I think (unless you tell me otherwise)

But will have mechanic 3....

Time served garage mechanics are expert, only elitists say otherwise, its why further education colleges are often staffed by people with backgrounds in actually doing rather than just reading...

They are indeed. A garage mechanic who has no formal education and has spent a year learning in an apprenticeship is no less capable than a graduate who has exactly the same training. Under the EDU = formal education logic he would have a lower EDU and be at a disadvantage. I say he would be as capable unless his low EDU represented a learning difficulty in which case he would get less benefit from his training than someone who's higher EDU represented an greater ability to remember and apply knowledge.

and don't forget if the garage mechanic wants to the can raise their Edu to equal Int by self study

That's just moving the goal posts. The graduate can do the same.

In MGT2 CRB it is not possible to raise EDU by self study (Companion allows it but it is a slow process).

It remains an holistic characteristic in my games.

Again, skill training is different to Education, one of the flaws in the Mongoose and MegaTraveller and many other task systems is the artificial boundaries they put between skills and characteristics like Int and Edu - never invent a skill that is covered bu what you should already know based on education and experience...

Perhaps it would have been better if they had never allowed stats to provide bonuses to skill checks.

If you want to have dice rolls to determine success you need something to hang off it. If you just blob all that up into what you should know from experience you might as well only have one skill like Profession and allow all rolls to be made based off it. If you do that though you end up doing exactly what the various editions of Traveller did and start adding "important" skills as otherwise you might as well not make any rolls at all.

CT did things differently and if you like that then fine. D&D originally only had stats and levels in a profession (Class) and we did fine.