Advanced education

[swordtart]

Not according to the CRB section I drew attention to. IYTU you can do what you like, and, if you want to give out (up to) 12 x EDU+1, for Graduation Benefits, then good for you.

No it doesn't. The reference you cite doesn't mention study periods as it is all about pre-adventure character development.

After you muster out of your pre-career and career terms (of which University is one option - companion has several other pre-career options), the normal rule in the CRB for development (p75) is 8 week study periods. On a real world education model it would not be unreasonable to be able to fit in 3 a year and still have time to do other things like adventuring. Instead of inventing another career type that takes up a standard 4 year term you could just use that rule.

CRB only allows training in skills, but the companion allows stat increases and so increasing EDU is a possibility. However the number of study periods is double and is greater the higher the stat. So increasing EDU from 7 to 8 for example would actually take 16 successful study periods.

Companion also introduces experience points and full time education (whatever that means - most of mine was spent in the student union bar) allows 3 points per year. If you do it the conventional way, you could squeeze in up to 6 study periods per year but you will need a successful EDU check for each of them to actual gain the equivalent of 1 experience point.

So no, 12 study periods will not give you 12 x EDU+1.

 

[swordtart]

Using semester rather than term would probably have caused less confusion

Hmm maybe, but in the UK, Term is the standard... err... term. I believe it is also the generic form so a Semester is a "Term". This usage is from the medieval period where Universities were first established.

In the UK we have 3 terms (Autumn, Spring and Summer - which are really badly named as the periods do not correspond to when the seasons fall - e.g. spring term starts in January which is mid-winter) these are generally 10 weeks each, though Oxbridge Universities still hold to the medieval 8 week terms.

In the US I believe they have 2 Semesters (Fall and Spring) of 6 months each. Some US universities instead use Trimesters or even quarters so it is hardly universal. Semesters may also be subdivided into "Terms" for specific courses.

Other nations have different numbers of academic periods with different names so Semester isn't universal. More importantly it doesn't fit well with the 8 week study period, whereas the classic 8-weeks of the medieval university and still in use in many nations does.

 

[boggo2300]

Hmm maybe, but in the UK, Term is the standard... err... term. I believe it is also the generic form so a Semester is a "Term". This usage is from the medieval period where Universities were first established.

In the UK we have 3 terms (Autumn, Spring and Summer - which are really badly named as the periods do not correspond to when the seasons fall - e.g. spring term starts in January which is mid-winter) these are generally 10 weeks each, though Oxbridge Universities still hold to the medieval 8 week terms.

In the US I believe they have 2 Semesters (Fall and Spring) of 6 months each. Some US universities instead use Trimesters or even quarters so it is hardly universal. Semesters may also be subdivided into "Terms" for specific courses.

Other nations have different numbers of academic periods with different names so Semester isn't universal. More importantly it doesn't fit well with the 8 week study period, whereas the classic 8-weeks of the medieval university and still in use in many nations does.

Here in Aus School has 4 terms a year, and Uni is 3 Semesters (or at least it was when I went ) none of which are named for seasons (or especially align to them), Semester is a German term for "half year" so not sure how we ended up with three Semesters in Uni, or even ended up with a German term

 

[Limpin Legin]

The reference you cite doesn't mention study periods as it is all about pre-adventure character development.

Excuse me, it does. In the chargen minigame, the basic unit of time is a term:

"... usually takes place in a Traveller’s first term (in place of a career), although it can be delayed up until the third term if a term or two in a career is desired. From term four onwards, pre-career education is no longer available"

For gaming purposes, a term is defined here and is in all other editions of Traveller:

"Each Traveller goes through one or more four-year career terms, which grant various skills and benefits."

CRB, pg 8

 

[swordtart]

Excuse me, it does. In the chargen minigame, the basic unit of time is a term:

Ok where on those pages are the words "study period" used?

For gaming purposes, a term is defined here and is in all other editions of Traveller:

That is not the only use of the word "term" in real life or even in Traveller.
"The term character is used to describe those in the game controlled by the referee rather than the players"
"Wounds: Any long-term wounds your Traveller may be suffering from, including any medication they need, can be listed here."
"Most of the items in this category can be cybernetic (mechanical or electronic implants and prostheses) or biological (genetic engineering and surgical alternation) or both (a more common solution) but the general term of ‘augment’ is used for all of them.
"Short Term Life Support: This provides a breathable atmosphere inside a closed vehicle for one day, no matter the exterior conditions. The cost is for every person the system must support."
"The term spacecraft covers any interplanetary or interstellar vehicle – anything that can travel through space under its own power."
"The term world refers to the various bodies contained in a stellar system"
"An Unusual atmosphere is a catchall term for an atmosphere that behaves in a strange manner."

So while term may be used most commonly to describe a 4 year period in a career, you would have to be an absolute buffoon to argue that it can only be used for that purpose or that the definition the word term is invariably "a 4 year period".

If you want to die on this hill please provide your own ammunition.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Well, I'm glad I raised that.

 

[Whitehart]

That's because you're not a Vegan.

I assume.

But yes. Just because they have 16 year terms doesn't mean it takes them 4 times as long to gain formal certification. Given their cultural emphasis on education, they might, on average, only require half the time to finish a degree as an Imperial. Which is not the same as gaining a skill rank; we all know beings with great academic credentials that somehow aren't very good at actually applying what they learned outside of exams and assignments. And likewise, talented beings with great skills that they apply well, but who weren't able to pass their tests in school.

This came up in another thread, but it really isn't clear exactly how Vegans do higher education, only that they value it. My guess is that it's pretty much integrated into their whole prior career generation, and effectively almost ALL Vegans study at a higher education level throughout their careers. But that's only my opinion.

Also there’s also the probability that universities that didn’t only accept Vegan students probably wouldn’t change their processes to matriculate Vegan students for 16 years when everyone else gets 4.

Vegans really need a re-tool of their pre-career options. I feel their search for a tuihir needs to be reflected in a special, mandatory pre-career option that can fit into their 16 year term and gives them more appropriate skills.

As it is, they must take drifter as their first career, which eliminates a lot of the benefits of, say, military academy (because you can’t go into the appropriate service upon leaving) or going from university to become a bum.

The skills gained are also problematic, because the society that values education and “higher” standards sends every member out to learn Deception, Streetwise, or Gun Combat.

 

[Condottiere]

Add electronics, and that's a formula to ace your exams.

 

[Limpin Legin]

That is not the only use of the word "term" in real life or even in Traveller.
...

If you want to die on this hill please provide your own ammunition.

You know the word 'term' has many uses. I know that too. That is not the point. The point is the way the publications (Core Rules, Campaign JTAS volumes, etc) use the word. So long as a published document uses the words consistently, or in a well defined manner, then there is no issue how many other word uses you can dig up - sigh.

Abstracted out: If you have a word called X which has five meanings X1, ..., or X5. In document A the word X is used many times according to definition X2. Even if someone else comes along and uses word X to mean X5, it doesn't matter - Document A is still correct according to it's own terms, X = X2, and X does not equal X5.

Ok where on those pages are the words "study period" used?

Can you please limit the vocabulary to Career and Pre-Career rules. Otherwise you are making any perceivable discussion more difficult for everyone.

 

[swordtart]

Can you please limit the vocabulary to Career and Pre-Career rules. Otherwise you are making any perceivable discussion more difficult for everyone.

No I cannot, because I am not talking about Career or Pre-Career rules. I am talking about POST CAREER education rules as set out in CRB p55 which talks about STUDY PERIODS.

For the avoidance of doubt a standard CAREER TERM of 4 years equates to 26 STUDY PERIODS of 8 weeks (which equates to a REAL LIFE university term at Oxbridge). That provides 26 chances to improve a skill if you make the education check.

The question was about post graduate study. There is no requirement that post-graduate study needs to be in reference to CAREER TERMS at all.

I am not sure "everyone" is having trouble with this concept.

 

[Limpin Legin]

No I cannot, because I am not talking about Career or Pre-Career rules. I am talking about POST CAREER education rules as set out in CRB p55 which talks about STUDY PERIODS.

For the avoidance of doubt a standard CAREER TERM of 4 years equates to 26 STUDY PERIODS of 8 weeks (which equates to a REAL LIFE university term at Oxbridge). That provides 26 chances to improve a skill if you make the education check.

The question was about post graduate study. There is no requirement that post-graduate study needs to be in reference to CAREER TERMS at all.

I am not sure "everyone" is having trouble with this concept.

Interesting but Off Topic View: Have you actually read the article in JTAS volume 10 that the OP is referring to? The question is about a Pre Career advanced extension to the Graduate and Military education, featured in Journal of the Travellers Aid Society. You get a DM+2 if you have already graduated with honours from the Graduate or Military schools.

This requires another four year term but ensures the Traveller is highly specialised with automatic entry to the career of their choosing should they be successful.
(Advanced Education, pg 127 - 128, JTAS volume 10)

Besides, you don't need to go to a highly prestigious school in order to do Post Grad Training; you can do any training on a starship in the middle of Jump Travel.

 

[swordtart]

Interesting but Off Topic View: Have you actually read the article in JTAS volume 10 that the OP is referring to? The question is about a Pre Career advanced extension to the Graduate and Military education, featured in Journal of the Travellers Aid Society. You get a DM+2 if you have already graduated with honours from the Graduate or Military schools.

"Has anyone already got a well-founded set of rules for advanced education (post grad programmes) beyond the limited stuff in JTAS 10?"

You may consider this question can only be answered with reference to a career based system but it is not implicit. I read it that the poster was looking for alternate rules to those set out in JTAS10.

I was pointing out that the best post grad programme is just taking a few Study Periods to get the specific skills you want rather than committing to an entire 4-year career for a couple of points of skills.

For example: The options in JTAS10 don't have an event table specified (I presume you recycle the pre-career one, or are there no events?). They are presumably another career term without Benefits. You need to roll for entry and the requirements are quite stiff compared to other options (and of course there are no entry requirements to Post Career Education). Overall they seem to be a poor return on your time compared to a career term or just mustering out and taking a year out of adventuring to get some dedicated study in.

It is also not explicitly stated that you cannot enter University or an Academy more than once. You cannot attempt more than once per career term and you cannot attempt after the third career term, but there is nothing saying that you cannot spend your first 3 terms as pre-career terms.
It would probably be unwise as you would be fairly one-dimensional and you might not have any life skills or money by the end of it (so probably an accurate representation of many post-grads).

Besides, you don't need to go to a highly prestigious school in order to do Post Grad Training; you can do any training on a starship in the middle of Jump Travel.

I didn't say you did. This route is going to take significantly longer though and there is no guarantee of success.

However as I pointed out the companion allows you to dispense with actually having to make education rolls when enrolled in full-time training (again no entry requirement) at a planetary university or college and grants the equivalent of 1 Study Period success every 4 months. Whilst this is put forward as part of a wider experience point system you could read across if developing your own post graduation rules. It also allows the points to be spent on stat improvements unlike normal Post Career Education and so can boose EDU or INT (Though this is inefficient). It provides a good baseline to developing an alternate post-grad education ruleset, or even calibrating a career-based system.

 

[ottarrus]

Has anyone already got a well-founded set of rules for advanced education (post grad programmes) beyond the limited stuff in JTAS 10?

If not I'll go and run something up and share it here.

I'd very much like to see that. I think we're all pretty much past the 'Medical-3 is a doctor' thing

 

[ResslynHalvik]

I'd very much like to see that. I think we're all pretty much past the 'Medical-3 is a doctor' thing

Yeah - I'm very much thinking about advanced education rather than training - PhD (in a science or academic subject), MBA, Law school, etc.

 

[ottarrus]

Yeah - I'm very much thinking about advanced education rather than training - PhD (in a science or academic subject), MBA, Law school, etc.

Certainly, but those degrees are going to come with skills [in a Traveller sense... not so much IRL ]
I might suggest that you look up MgT 'Aliens of Charted Space 3'... the Darrian civilization has a well structured education system that may give you ideas.

 

[ResslynHalvik]

Certainly, but those degrees are going to come with skills [in a Traveller sense... not so much IRL ]
I might suggest that you look up MgT 'Aliens of Charted Space 3'... the Darrian civilization has a well structured education system that may give you ideas.

Oh, fab - I don't have volume three, and will take a look.

Yes, very much thinking that starting a PhD gets you Admin 0, and successfully completing the programme of study and defending your thesis gets you Admin 1 and Persuade 1, in addition to Science (X) and EDU uplifts. Plus some practical skills from lab work or field trips.

 

[ottarrus]

That looks reasonable on its face.
Either Admin or Art [Writing] depending on the degree. Let's be honest, some Lit theses read like novels anyway

 

[Condottiere]

Research could be a specialization of Administration.

 

[rinku]

Outright Education score may be the best rule of thumb for achieved qualifications, informed by skill competencies.

Pre-Career University- bachelor study - gives +1 EDU, graduating either path gives +1 EDU. So the average stat (6-8) Graduate is going to be in the 7-9 EDU range, 8-10 for University types.

Advanced Education tables are available for EDU 8+ (Most) or 10+ (Citizen, Entertainer, Rogue, Scholar).

Many careers have +EDU in their skill and mustering out tables. Getting those results strongly implies further study, though if the starting EDU score is low, that might mean completing primary or secondary education.

It would not be unrealistic to peg a bachelor degree to EDU 9+, the +1DM threshold. I'd also suggest EDU6 would usually mean a character has completed secondary education. You could, as a rule of thumb, peg Doctorates to EDU 12+. Obviously actual graduates do have the qualification regardless of EDU - this is just for what might be expected in general. But also, the odds of graduating with less than 8 EDU are fairly low.

And naturally this is just looking at genuine higher level education and having formally earned it. A character with a medical degree purchased from Quack McShonky U could be any level of EDU; a high EDU character may never have studied to qualify, despite having a wide and deep knowledge of things in general, or even that area in particular. EDU plus skill competencies largely sort out the differences there.

To summarise the above with a few examples:

A mediocre Physics PhD character might be EDU 12, Science 0. A competent one might be EDU 12, Science (Physics) 2. A well established one might be EDU 12, Science (Physics) 4. A character with EDU 15 but no Science skill won't have a doctorate, but might be able to get by - especially if they have JoT. A character with EDU 7, Science (Physics) 4 also won't have a doctorate, maybe not even a bachelor degree, but at least has had a lot of formal training in Physics, or is naturally gifted, or both.

 

[WHULorigan]

It would not be unrealistic to peg a bachelor degree to EDU 9+, the +1DM threshold. I'd also suggest EDU6 would usually mean a character has completed secondary education.

BTW, as a standard for comparison, in T5 CharGen a character with very low EDU could choose to complete the EDU5 Course (basically like a GED, or General Educational Development, test) granting the equivalent of a High School (Secondary Education) Diploma and raising EDU to 5 before entering CharGen proper.