[ACTA2e] Validity of Vorlon Fleet.

[HeroesGames]

I have Played 6 games now and have found the Vorlons while having an outstanding Weaponry on its fighters and really all its ships. Its ability to hold the field is greatly depreciated. Especially with changing in how they and Shadows take damage. While I like the change from a game sense as it makes the rules more fluid for all players. but in how it was implimented makes the ships very much the consistancy of Crape Paper.

For Example: A Vorlon Light Cruiser with 55 Damage at War Level Appears on paper with its 2d6 Self Repair, and Adaptive Armour seems to be correct essentually a 110 damage ship.

But the problem lies with the Ability to take criticals, being that the critical chart now has multiple examples of removing random traits this destroys the fleet. Being that the Light Cruiser has 5 total traits you have a 2 in 5 chance of rolling a trait that accounted for the reduction of its Damage as compared to other War Levels.
for example last game i played against a Narn Cruiser (G'Vrahn). And he succeded in criticaling me 4 times in the rounds of shooting which is statistically average for the vessel. his criticals removed 3 of my traits, Adaptive Armour, AGP and Self Repair. and destroyed the ship before he finished shooting the ship. With the ability to remove a trait such as Adaptive Armour or self repair on a fleet that is already been dropped in damage due to these traits in my opinion removes their validity as a fleet list atleast until your playing games at the Armageddon level.

Im not complaining just voicing an opinion.

 

[EDFDarkAngel1]

Sounds like good rolling to me. I had a White Star (Raid level) carve an Apollo Bombardment Cruiser (Battle level) in half with just one weapon. Just happens like that sometimes.

Dark Angel

 

[Greg Smith]

I never seem to take out the traits that are important. I played against the Minbari tonight and every time I got a trait loss crit or crippled a ship, did I take out stealth? No!

Remember that Vorlons repair all of their crits in the following turn, so they won't lose their traits for long. It is true that Vorlons will suffer from trait loss, but no more than Minbari losing stealth or White Stars losing dodge.

 

[Galatea]

You can loose adaptive armour?
Okay, that's indeed VERY strange...

 

[HeroesGames]

only that my ship has 55 damage at war level and against another war level once Adaptive Armour or Self-Repair are disabled i have to endure the rest of that turn with out the trait which explains my low level damage ratings.. also compairing White stars and Minbari to Vorlons or any other race is apples to oranges.. just try it. and see how it works.

Also being that they are automatically repaired in the end phase of the turn after i would have to endure 2 shooting phases without adaptive armour and believe me 55 damage is not much to deal when your out numbers 3 or 4 to one as is the average at most levels with the Vorlons.

 

[Ripple]

Actually its not just trait loss that has hampered the Vorlons under the new rules. The chart also has a number of hits that effectively remove all firepower from the ship. Previously, the one low AD weapon did little to limit the vorlon ships. Now you are at considerable risk of being rendered completely impotent both on the turn hit and the following turn, assuming you haven't fired yet.

In a game that is generally decided in the first three firing opportunities, losing out can be a big deal. Yes, you are similar to a whitestar in that you have only one arc and are trait dependent. Unlike the whitestar fleet however you have little or no choices with which to 'pad' your fleet, and do not gain as you progress up the chart. The Victory and the whitestar carrier are both more resilient than their lower priority sisters...but the Vorlon heavy only gains a second weapon line.

Shrug, just saying that the race has issue now that may be hard to compensate for. Burger and his crew pointed out the issues with the Ancient ships in 1st ed, with crits reducing the ships to useless hunks for most turns just because of the number of crits that removed weapons, movement making them questionable. Now you can make them weaponless, motionless and defenseless...

Just wondering when the learning from the past kicks in...

Ripple

 

[HeroesGames]

well, i just dont find the fleet viable as a Player fleet in a campaign or off game unless its very large Level. Being that in the normal Raid 5 game you can pretty much horde up on the Transports but again the same problems lie.. the critical charts are brutal but i see the real problem being in their damage statistic.. at skirmish it should be on par with other skirmishs not half.

 

[sidewinder]

Hopefully if you lose AA its to the last ship to fire. Even if he shoots at you with 3 weapons and the first one gets the crit that takes out your AA, it is assumed that all firing takes place at the same time. So you still have AA for the rest of that ships weapons fire.

 

[Winged_Human]

I'm sorry but I just don't see the points that have been made here as valid. Vorlons and Shadows alike Are walking death rays. They rely completely on their technoology to save their collective butts and rely on little else.

Vorlons: Hang back and blast the doo doo out of them until there's nothing left

Shadows: Come in hard and fast, and outmaneuver them.

But one thing remains, Their weapons are some of the most devistating in the game 6AD TD P?? On average 4-9 hits that's 12-27 Dmg, not counting Crits.

If you're relying on huill strength to get you through the night with these fleets you're definatly using the wrong races. Try something else like Narn, Centauri, or EA.

Again, this is just my opinion.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Normally I'd agree, particularly with the Shadows, but in the case of the Vorlons they have ALWAYS been slow moving tanks (AoG, 1E updates, SFoS, Tourney Pack, Armageddon). They have a nasty forward arc and they could take a lot of punishment, but once you got behind them they were forced to lock into a full 360 coverage or just be eaten by the gnats. I can see where HeroesGames and Ripple can see that the change in Critical Table and revision of the ancient's damage tables are reducing the Vorlons to a smoldering ruin a fair amount of the time. I suppose I missed that a 6 was now a Critical versus a 7 on the damage charts for ancients (and while auto repair is indeed great - a full round of weapons fire on an undefended Vorlon ship the turn after the crit. is going to leave nothing behind). So for the Vorlon players, I suppose they better hope that the AA doesn't falter.

 

[Winged_Human]

Slow moving tanks maybe, but their damage output on all their weapons, along with their AA and self healing make them extremely nasty.

Unfortunatly I have not had the chance to play against them often enough to experience what HeroesGames and Ripple have, but I soon hope to find out how devistating a couple of lucky crit rolls can be to them.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Bring the Drakh or Minbari against them (or some of the EA missile boats) and see how long the Precise weapons take to bring down the Vorlon defenses. Serious - I'm not trolling or fishing, I'd like to see some more runs on it to get a good basis for comparison, especially across a lot of people since my dice roll one way and Jim-Bo "Dice of Doom" McFlanagen* may roll 6's with his red dice 80% of the time. Knee-jerk yelling doesn't accomplish much and the number of trait reduction crits is in a low percentage but still potentially a game swinging factor.


*Any similarity to any person living or dead is merely coincidental.

 

[Burger]

Vorlons also suffer from the Swarm syndrome. They tend to field small numbers of large ships. The rules are stacked against this tactic, since swarm fleets invariably have a much better chance of winning against any large ship.

 

[angelus2000]

Vorlons also suffer from the Swarm syndrome. They tend to field small numbers of large ships. The rules are stacked against this tactic, since swarm fleets invariably have a much better chance of winning against any large ship.

Actually, I've wondered about this on occasion. WIth the exception of movement which I can see as obviously benefitting swarm fleets, I really haven't seen anything else in the basic mechanics which makes swarm fleets so superior. Or is it the FAP's splitting which is the cause of swarm fleet superiority which your referring too?

Initially I was going to say the ship stats were the problem. Most Raid and below ships had an increase in lethality (Vorchan/Demos and Artemis being my examples in mind) and there was very little if any increase in survivability in Battle and above. The new crit chart helps big ships from crit death, but the increased lethality of smaller ships renders that largely ineffective as your now taking less substantial crits but a lot more raw damage than before.

But on second thought, the ships stats are largely meaningless. Its how many and at what PL you can field in a given game which seems to be the Headache of the majority at the moment. Is that right?

 

[Burger]

The swarm problem is partly the FAP splits, and the fact that a "standard" game is 5pt Raid. This means you can get 10 Skirmish ships, as opposed to 1 War and 1 Raid.

The main reason is crits. If you have one large ship, then a couple of choice crits can totally shut you down. You can lose your main weapon; lose your vital traits; become adrift... if these happen to a swarm fleet then you still have 9 other perfectly fine ships to carry on with. Same applies to 6-6 crits... with one large ship, a 6-6 crit can often mean game over. With a swarm, it kills of 10% of your fleet.

2e went some way to balance out swarm fleets, in that crits are easier to repair - although you still have to live with the effects for a turn, during which you might just get a whole load of new crits. However 2e also borked up the FAP splits and introduced the twofers, which gave a big boost to swarms again. So all in all, swarms are still far superior to a small number of large ships.

The best workaround is still to play at 1pt Armageddon. It allows the swarm player to have 12 Skirmish ships, but the large ship player can have 1 War, 1 Battle and 2 Raid to face him with. Much better odds and a much more fun game. Of course you need house rules for ISA and Psi Corps allies.

 

[katadder]

i played the narn last night with their twofers, really didnt bother me as my fighters went after them and killed them whilst my other ships concentrated on taking out narn ships.

as for vorlons low damage - 55 for a warship, sounds like the sharlin, and the sharlin can lose stealth too, in fact a vorlon can get down to a 2+to see a sharlin without it even losing the trait.
throught all the crits there are only 3 results that take traits, and even if that one is rolled you then have to get the AA trait out of everything you get.

the highest tech fleets all suffer from these crits - ISA have raid ships with 10 damage, imagine if they lose AA and Dodge?
minbari have ships with damage equivalent to one PL lower and also 33% thresholds, bad for them to lose stealth.
drakh really dont want to lose their GEGs as they generally have lower damage per level too.
overall no one wants to lose defenses, its how i have beaten EA fleets due to taking out interceptors and is what other people crit fish for but you cannot guarantee this to win you a game.

 

[Clanger]

To quote Greg

I never seem to take out the traits that are important. I played against the Minbari tonight and every time I got a trait loss crit or crippled a ship, did I take out stealth? No!

Close game last night as well vs his EA fleet.

I think each fleet has its pluses and minuses. I am playing Vorlons in a campaign we are doing (a cheap 10 point battle fleet :-D). Still waiting to have them blooded by Gregs Narn though. Personally because the Vorlon repairs crits etc at the end of the round, then this is not a major loss compared to everyone else.

It just means a different tactical approach and playing to their strengths.

 

[Sulfurdown]

It just means a different tactical approach and playing to their strengths.

Hit & Run Vorlon?

 

[No. 1 Bear]

It just means a different tactical approach and playing to their strengths.

Hit & Run Vorlon?

A vorlon craft actually being able to get past the enemy is easy, the problem uccours with turning around once your past him.

 

[Da Boss]

really? most Volron ships are quite maneuverable - 2 45 degree turns on the Lt Cruiser, 90 degree turn on the Destroyer / transport - "come about" and double that?