ACTA: Leshath

[Burger]

Which takes priority: the bonuses from a Leshath, or the other stealth bonuses? For example, a Corvan is sitting in an asteoid field, 25 inches away from my ship. A Leshath successfully uses its scout ability on it. Which is correct:

a) Stealth is reduced to 1+, then +1 for being over 20", and +2 for the asteroids for a final stealth value of 4+
b) Range bonus increases stealth to 5+, then Leshath reduces it to 1+, then asteroids increase it again for a final stealth value of 3+
c) Asteroids boost stealth to 5+, Leshath reduces it to 1+. Then the shooting ship is over 20", so it goes up to 2+
d) Range puts stealth up to 5+, asteroids put it up to 7+, then Leshath puts it down to 1+

 

[armbarred]

We play it that the Stealth trait goes to 1+ then add modifiers. So a.

 

[katadder]

well as the corvan moved into the asteroid fields I would say its stealth is increased 1st with all mods. then the leshath lowers stealth to 1 so option d

 

[Burger]

Personally I'd say c... the Corvan moved into the asteroids, putting it up to 6+, Then the Leshath put it down to 1+. Then the attacking ship is 20" away, so up to 2+. But thats just my theory, hopefully we'll get a definitive answer!

 

[MongooseMatt]

Good question. The answer is A.

 

[Burger]

Great, thanks Matt.

 

[Burger]

OK... so option (a) is that all scouting is done before modifiers from asteroids, range, etc.

So what happens if the ship I am firing on does not have stealth originally? The Leshath cannot reduce stealth because it does not have any. Then it gets Stealth 3+ from the asteroids. So, scouting is useless against stealth derived from asteroids?

How about Run Silent, can a scout help against that stealth?

 

[armbarred]

The scout action takes place after movement, so you would know it has stealth in both cases. You could still reduce it with the Scout action.

 

[Burger]

The scout action takes place after movement, so you would know it has stealth in both cases. You could still reduce it with the Scout action.

That contradicts what Matt has ruled above. He said the Leshath's scouting action is performed before the bonus from the asteroids is applied (which is option A).

Unless there are 2 unique cases... if the target already has stealth, the Leshath's scouting ability is applied before the asteroids bonus. If the target doesn't have stealth, the scout's ability is applied after the asteroids bonus. Seems like a nasty solution.

Matt - help please?

 

[armbarred]

The instance you are talking about though was from a ship that already had stealth. The Scout action reduces the targets Stealth trait. A ship that does not have Stealth "gains" the Stealth trait from being in an asteroid field or from Run Silent.

 

[MongooseMatt]

The instance you are talking about though was from a ship that already had stealth. The Scout action reduces the targets Stealth trait. A ship that does not have Stealth "gains" the Stealth trait from being in an asteroid field or from Run Silent.

This is correct - the Leshath's rules is applied to any ship with the Stealth trait (however temporary that may be, as with asteroids). It is, in effect, taking that trait, and giving it a new number. That number can be modified after the fact, as normal, but the base score starts at 1+

Other wise, we would have just said the Leshath completely ignores Stealth!

 

[katadder]

ok thats confusing now.
if a ship has stealth already and is in asteroids it ends up at stealth 3+ after the leshaths work, but if it didnt have stealth before the leshath can negate the stealth given by an asteroid field. really confusing.

 

[armbarred]

It doesn't negate it because it can still be affected by range.

A ship with Stealth already gets to keep the bonus because it already has either active or passive systems generating a sensor confusing effect.

 

[KennyBoy]

I'm with Burger on this one (I know i'm not a playtester or anything, but I hope my opinion would still be considered).
As Scouting is done after movement, then the target's Stealth Trait - be it temporarily gained, or augmented by the terrain it has moved into - will then be reduced by the Scout.
The only other modifier that applies after the Scout has reduced Stealth, is dependent upon the range between target and firer...

 

[Ripple]

weird, I would have thought given the answer A that stealth is challenged by scout functions after movement, then any modifiers applied.

Modifiers to stealth are terrain, range, additional fire, normal scout function right?

Would it be better to assume that all ships start with effective stealth 1+? That is effectively what asteroids do (give a ships with a 1+ non stealth the +2 bonus and you get up to 3+). Of course that doesn't work with range mods or we'd all be rolling for the 20+ range weapons... sigh... sounded good for a moment.

Just not understanding the logic.

Ship in asteroids (no stealth) gets a stealth 3+, get's it reduce to 1+, then gets range mods, friendly fire mods etc., but a ship with stealth of say 3+, gets reduced to 1+ then recieves the asteriod bonus back up to 3+?

Feels clunky... maybe ships in terrain gain a stealth 1+, then gain the +2 mod for terrain, then range etc. that works out better... but Leshath would end up reducing a 3+ to a 3+ then...still okay with that a degree...

Ripple

 

[Burger]

It does indeed feel over-complicated. A simple list of the order to apply bonuses would be better. At the moment it is:

1) If ship already has stealth, apply Scout ability
2) Modify for terrain
3) If ship didn't originally have stealth trait, apply scout bonus
4) Additional fire bonus
5) Range bonus
6) Ship bonus such as enhanced sensors refit, Shadows/Vorlons bonus

 

[Methos5000]

It still seems odd though, that if the ship already has stealth you can't negate terrain effects but if it doesn't have stealth you can negate terrain effects. I suppose it could be argued that your using your stealth breaking system in different ways depending on whether on not the ship has stealth.

Though if that is the case why couldn't you use two scouts, one to negate the stealth of the ship and the other one to negate the effects of terrain? There are really two different stealth systems in play here (Target jamming and terrain) though the only time its actually an issue is with the Leshath.

It just seems odd that the most advanced scout in the galaxy can completly negate the stealth of the enemy ship or adjust for random dust particles or asteroids moving about but not both. Since the stealth being reduced to 1+ essentially means the Leshath got an exact lock on the ship to provide its location to its allies doesn't that mean it knows the exact location of the ship even in the middle of the asteroid field? So despite knowing exactly where the ship is its still possible to miss it because of a random asteroid or dust particles. And if the ship doesnt have stealth it can rip right through those asteroids and dust particles and tell its allies right where the ship is at, which it already does against ships with stealth unless they are hiding around an asteroid or some dust particles........

I always thought like some other on here, that the stealth of the ship is one total determined by its stealth trait plus terrain and the scouts roll to reduce that number, now its just confusing.

 

[The_Mhor]

On the other hand, all of these things that grant stealth provide the trait to unstealthed ships, but a bonus to stealthed ones. For example, the Asteroids description says that it provides the "Stealth 3+" trait to a ship without stealth, but it provides a +2 bonus to stealth for ships that already have it. This difference in wording, while achieving the same effect for both ships is applied at different times; granting the trait as soon as a nonstealthed ship enters the cloud, but applying the bonus when the enemy try and achieve a lock.

This could mean that in the initial example the Corvan has a final stealth score of 4+.
If however the Corvan had suffered a critical hit that removed it's stealth trait earlier in the battle and limped into the asteroids to hide then it would be granted stealth 3+ by the asteroids, reduced to 1+ by the Leshath and +1 for range for a final Stealth score of 2+.

Stealthed ships will always come out of this better than unstealthed ships, as you would expect.

 

[KennyBoy]

So, it seems to me that the Scout Trait is only to be used against a targets Stealth Trait - be it intrinsic or temporarily gained - then all other factors are applied...
So, a ship that has an intrinsic Stealth score gets the bonus from terrain, but a ship that has its Stealth "trait" bestowed upon it by terrain, then has it reduced to 1+ by the Leshath then gets any other mod that applies... does that sound right? :?:

 

[Burger]

So, it seems to me that the Scout Trait is only to be used against a targets Stealth Trait - be it intrinsic or temporarily gained - then all other factors are applied...
So, a ship that has an intrinsic Stealth score gets the bonus from terrain, but a ship that has its Stealth "trait" bestowed upon it by terrain, then has it reduced to 1+ by the Leshath then gets any other mod that applies... does that sound right? :?:

Nope, the terrain rules specifically say they increase a ship's stealth trait. They are not modifiers to the stealth roll...