About the Narn...

[Tzarevitch]

I think there is a pretty clear response from the playtesters that they have little to no interest in giving the G'Quan a decent beam. so people have kind of moved on to secondaries in the hope of getting SOMETHING! I may ask my group if I can use the early era G'Quan from mine and morgs supplement! or even katadders G'Kar stats!

But "something" that does not address the problem may as well be "nothing". If my car has an engine problem, fitting it with a new tire isn't going to solve the problem. Maybe if we howl until we are blue in the face someone will acknowledge the problem and fix it.

All the proposals to increase the secondaries are just spackling over the problem. By the way, they are actually tertiaries not secondaries, although the G'Quan's secondaries once fired once can be easily forgotten. Improved-range, twin-linked, DD ion cannons just make the G'Quan into an odd-shaped Primus. The whole point is for the Narn ships to have a different fighting style than the Centauri. If they liked the way the Centauri ships fought, they'd be flying primuses themselves.

Lets not forget that the playtesters insisted that the Gaim were fine too (no offense to the playtesters). Hopefully they will accept the fact that Narn players are universally saying the G'Quan is weak. Now that the Gaim have since been acknowledged to be broken and were subsequently fixed next on the list should be the Abbai as a whole, + shadow fighters and the G'Quan as these two have a crippling effect on their fleet.

The G'Quan problem wouldn't be so bad except it chained onto its variants. The G'Lan isn't as bad as it can at least fire ALL its weapons more than ONCE. It is short-ranged and VERY slow though. Once the G'Quan fires its e-mines it may as well jump back out. Its remaining big gun is no better than Narn ships 1 PL below it. The G'Tal might as well not show up at all, it would be better if it could phone its command bonus in by telepresence.

All I ask is for the beam to be increased by 2d or at the very least make the e-mines slow-loading. E-mines are soft damage but at least they do soft damage to everything in the area and at long range.

Tzarevitch

 

[H]

fair enough, I suppose putting another spoiler on it wouldn't fix it.
as to the gaim, I believe the Playtesters got very little time to try them, yes, looking at them they looked broken anyway, but I think they were a very late release to the fleet lists, and Matt doesn't necesarily have to listen to anything his playtesters say anyway.

 

[Rawwar]

To be fair it's not just Narn players who are saying the G'Quon is weak either here or in the group I play in.

To paraphrase, a friend said to me last night, "It's your trademark ship and it sucks that you can't field it."

 

[Greg Smith]

All I ask is for the beam to be increased by 2d or at the very least make the e-mines slow-loading. E-mines are soft damage but at least they do soft damage to everything in the area and at long range.

I'll explain why I don't think 2AD on the beams will fix the problem. The beams and emines work great in the first few turns. But once the Vorchans and Tigaras get past the G'Quan, they can sit outside 8" and fire without any fear of return fire. Now this is true of most big, slow ships, but the G'Quan doesn't have the defences of, say, the Omega. If a Primus flew past a G'Quan at 10" the Primus could unload all of its weapons and the G'Quan would have nothing to return fire with.

Also whatever fix we end up with, it has to apply to the G'Tal and G'Lan, so it has to be something other than the emines (which doesn't rule out changing them).

 

[H]

forward beam ;-) 4 dice. gives "some " chance of turning and being able to unload on something anyway. . . .

 

[Rawwar]

Well my personal feeling is it isn't as simple as the G'Quon. If the Narn had the escorts capable of fencing with their enemies escorts & keeping them off the G'Quons we might not be having this discussion.

I just think it runs a little deeper than one ship, though I'd take some extra firepower on the G'Quon. You can go through the entire fleet list of the Narn and up to and including Battle level not one are as advertised. It looks like a very bad copy & paste from the 1st ed with no regard to how the ships perform now.

 

[Triggy]

Well as playtesters we've been batting the Narn/G'Quan around for a while now and one proposal we're fairly happy with is:

For the G'Quan and its variants increase the Heavy Laser Cannon AD by 1 (a 25% increase in beam firepower!) and the Damage and Crew by 10/2 (an 18% increase in toughness). The G'Quonth would get a slightly larger increase in each of these areas.

It serves to increase the toughness and the beam firepower without overpowering the ship. Any further increases would have to be compensated by losing something else to avoid breaking the stats. What would you think to this sort of improvement?

 

[Rawwar]

What would you think to this sort of improvement?

Well I'd take it for a start, I do have the fear that upping it's Hull isn't going to improve it that much simply because one of the areas the G'Quon suffers most is in amassing crits.

I was playing Skavendan the other day at a five point raid game Narn v Early EA and took a G'Lan. Now the G'Lan has all the firepower you mention & a little more & I got it into range on the first turn. I managed to get a Bore Sight on his Explorer (his DP sink) but took a Bore sight from a Hyperion in return due to loosing the initiative. I blew chunks off the Explorer but it could take it and let’s face it that's what it was there for. In return I took a good few beam hits all doing double damage and a couple of crits at least, one of which was a 6/5. By the end of that firing I had lost half my damage points and crew. Worse was to come when I later got a -1AD one all weapons systems crit. By the time it died I’d amassed 3!! I had some other crits on it too about 5 in total plus the extra damage and crew I lost with the 6/5 crit.

All this come into sharp relief when all my other firepower is coming up against Interceptors. I got all my short range stuff in but lost a lot of its punch due to the interceptors, less dice to roll as hits means less crits which was proved correct. To be fair I rolled some distinctly average beam rolls, on at least two occasions I rolled the dice & got nothing. Then the rest of my firepower which lacks punch anyway gets reduced by said interceptors. One shot ponies and even that shot isn’t significantly better than the Hyperion’s.

I didn’t play bad though I wouldn’t say I played great either but I had him on the ropes for a round or too but couldn’t deliver the knockout punch for various reasons & got rope-a-doped.

As we are apt to say these days, ‘He who crits wins.’

 

[l33tpenguin]

Which basically comes full circle in the whole 'cap ships need to be able to weather crits better' discussion. A ship could have 500 damage and crew but be rendered retarded by a handful of hits

 

[Rawwar]

Which basically comes full circle in the whole 'cap ships need to be able to weather crits better' discussion. A ship could have 500 damage and crew but be rendered retarded by a handful of hits

Well you and I and one or two others have been singing off the same hym sheet for a while & no doubt others were thinking it before I came along & stuck my oar in.

 

[Foxmeister]

For the G'Quan and its variants increase the Heavy Laser Cannon AD by 1 (a 25% increase in beam firepower!) and the Damage and Crew by 10/2 (an 18% increase in toughness). The G'Quonth would get a slightly larger increase in each of these areas.

Well, unless that comes with a some sort of "fix" with respect to boresight/initiative, I don't see it making much difference.

However, if the e-mine was made slow loading, that would probably be enough in my book - after all it is the *only* ship ever seen on screen firing an e-mine.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Rawwar]

Well, unless that comes with a some sort of "fix" with respect to boresight/initiative, I don't see it making much difference.

However, if the e-mine was made slow loading, that would probably be enough in my book - after all it is the *only* ship ever seen on screen firing an e-mine.

Regards,

But if we could roll with the punches that would be more Narn like. Basically take the best the enemy can dish out and come out fighting.

At the moment the Narn can't take it & don't dish it out as well as other fleets. I'd like minimal upgrades in firepower but tougher ships overall. I'd settle for the firepower but toughness & brawling is the Narn thing & that's what I'd like the fleet to look like.

 

[l33tpenguin]

But if we could roll with the punches that would be more Narn like. Basically take the best the enemy can dish out and come out fighting.

At the moment the Narn can't take it & don't dish it out as well as other fleets. I'd like minimal upgrades in firepower but tougher ships overall. I'd settle for the firepower but toughness & brawling is the Narn thing & that's what I'd like the fleet to look like.

Thats how I see the Narn as well. Tough ships. While Earth might have gotten a lot of its tech from the Narn, I see Earth as being more capable of refining the weapon systems (sorry, the Narn always struck me as a bit thick headed). Of the Big Four, I always thought of them as this:

Earth: A ship for every duty. A large fleet list with very diverse ships with many different capabilities, relying on a combination of arms to get the job done. Earth is pretty much that in the game.

Minbari: Swift, silent and deadly, I think the Minbari are spot on. While Stealth is terribly annoying, it reflects the Minbari well. They are all deadly beam weilding stealthy ships.

Centauri: I always thought of the Centauri as duelests, fighting elegantly. I don't know how to explain it in game terms. The mostly twin linked batteries of the Centauri due them justice, though I do think they have too many beam weapons. I would happily see the Centauri lose most of their beams in exchange for other weapons of relative power. Their less heavily armed ships compensate for this by being able to deal more damage.

Narn: Narn are straight up bruisers. Their main defense is straight bulk. While it is true they have higher damage scores than most of their competitors, I don't think it is enough. I'd say that at least 10-20% increase in damage scores would be appropriate. The Narn *shouldn't* be match any of the other big four in damage output. Thats not their job. They should be able to out last their opponents in a fight. With the ramp up in damage with 2e, I don't think they do so well.

They kinda remind me of Paladins in WoW. WoW paladins don't kill things. They just outlive them.

Fixing crits on cap ships would go a long way to solving this.

 

[Lord David the Denied]

Can anyone explain where this idea of the Narn being tougher than everyone else came from?

 

[l33tpenguin]

Can anyone explain where this idea of the Narn being tougher than everyone else came from?

For me, it didn't exactly come from anywhere. Its a theme in Babylon 5: the ships reflect distinct traits of their races (at least for the major powers).

Each races ships are representitive of the race. Humans are adaptable and innovative, Minbari are elegant and deadly, etc.

The Narn are survivors. This is repeated over and over throughout the show. They survived the Centauri occupation. Twice. G'Kar endures the most burtal physical journey of any other character in the series. Their ability to endure is proven time and again. The Narn are a race that will weather the storm. This should be reflected in their ships.

 

[Rawwar]

Can anyone explain where this idea of the Narn being tougher than everyone else came from?

Well I wouldn't say tougher just they win through attrition, making you pay a higher blood price than you're willing to pay. Whatever you give em they come back for more, problem is they don't extract that blood price at the moment.

Don't you agree they are brawlers?

 

[Locutus9956]

Can anyone explain where this idea of the Narn being tougher than everyone else came from?

1) As noted it's kind of the defining character of the narns as a race in the show. They take one hell of a beating on numerous occasions but always survive.

2) I know I'm going to get whined at for this but: B5Wars. Narn ships were hard as nails. About as maneuverable as a hardware store propelled by a bottle rocket but TOUGH. Only really heavily armed at very short range generally but tough enough to lumber on in there. There were a few minor exceptions like the Thentus but as a rule they were tough slow and short ranged, except for their lasers and mines. Now in ACTA the weaponry and meneuvering characterisitics are pretty much spot on (GQuan's boresight notwithstanding....) but the ships just arent tough enough (again with a few notable exceptions like the T'Loth).

3) It would make the major 4 races nice and distinct in style:

EA: All Rounders, Minbari: Stealthy, Centauri: Firepower, Narn: Tough

At the moment the Narn just fall into 'All rounder but not quite as good as the EA' I think and that just doesnt sit right. Don't get me wrong, the Narn are far from being a broken or underpowered force. They're certainly competitive and have some excellent ships it's just unfortunate that their most iconic one really isnt one of them. Really that's more the issue than the fleet as a whole.

Let's look at the major iconic ships from the show (exluding fighters for now):

The Sharlin - Hard to target, fairly tough by minbari standards, and VERY well armed and can rip ships to bits at long range. Seems spot on to me.
A bit expensive to call a 'ship of the line' in most acta games but this is a ship to be FEARED and thats how it should be.

The Omega - Blasts stuff with its lasers and flies straight into stuff and hammers them with pulse cannons, all the while pouring out starfuries and taking a hammering thanks to its interceptors and general toughness, but lumbering in there with no maneuverability. A brutal ship. Again seems pretty spot on to me and a good foundation for the fleet.

The Vorchan - Nippy and fast and hammering targets to scrap with vicious forward cannons. Deadly in 'wolf packs'. Again dead on to the show and the bread and butter of the centauri fleet as it should be.

The Whitestar - Insanely maneuverable and full of high tech gadgetry and great firepower for its size. Some people whine about it being too good but I personally think its dead on the money for wehre it should be at the moment. I only wish it was boresighted like on screen. But that's another story..... In any case, THE ship of the ISA fleet which is precicely how it should be

Which brings us to the last of the really 'iconic' ships of the major races:

The G'Quan - Now it's hard to really judge the G'Quan by it's onscreen performance in my oppinion since we only ever really see it fighting shadows in open battle which I personally dont think is a fair thing to base a ships statline off since, well, theyre FREAKING SHADOWS!). But in the one fight with we see with the Primus they basically slug it out at point blank range and the GQuan wins. Sure it dies too but the key think to note (aside from it clearly firing a non boresighted laser.....) is that it outlasts a primus with them blowing the crap out of each other at poing blank range. Now try that in game and watch what happens. I'd bet on the primus every single time. In fact the only way I see the Gquan winning is it getting lucky, and managing to boresight the Primus and ripping it a new one with a very lucky beam string.

 

[Jim?]

Well as playtesters we've been batting the Narn/G'Quan around for a while now and one proposal we're fairly happy with is:

For the G'Quan and its variants increase the Heavy Laser Cannon AD by 1 (a 25% increase in beam firepower!) and the Damage and Crew by 10/2 (an 18% increase in toughness). The G'Quonth would get a slightly larger increase in each of these areas.

It serves to increase the toughness and the beam firepower without overpowering the ship. Any further increases would have to be compensated by losing something else to avoid breaking the stats. What would you think to this sort of improvement?

I'd give the G'Quan the same heavy laser as the Bin'Tak (6 dice @ range 25) and change the damage upgrade to 5/1. Sure, it's a net 50% upgrade on the firepower, but you lose 5" of range to get it, and as a boresighted, lumbering ship with speed 6, the net effect is probably pretty similar to 5 dice @30", but it gives the fleet a slightly different feel to the sniping EA Omega list.

Making the E-Mine a 4 dice slow loader would also help, and I'd suggest changing the secondaries, as well. Maybe changing the number of dice on the light Ion Cannon/Pulse Cannon around, then changing the pulse out for Mediums at range 10.

I'd also swap out the Pulse Cannon on the T'Loth/T'Rann (also generally seen as weak, iconic ships) for Mediums, too... and possibly an upgrade to Heavy Pulse on at least some of the Bin'Tak's guns, with a reduction in dice. The T'Rakk also needs the Frazi/Gorith to be given a shot in the arm each... Frazis are good against Whitestars/Vorchans/Shadow Scouts/Shadow Ships (though they generally get 1 shot at most of them) and would make a better general anti-ship fighter with a slight range upgrade/dice cut.

I'd even suggest as much as giving the T'Rakk back it's 1e firepower, but it doesn't need that as much if the fighters are improved. It's already loses a lot to gain it's Frazis (0 Troops in a lumbering, slow ship. Sure, they're are a lot of crew on board, but 3 marines can kill them all pretty fast after a -4 speed/0 speed crit...)

I'd also like the Mag Gun changed, along with some of the weaker, non-iconic ships (Rothan/Rongoth/G'Sten) to make them viable selections, and a slight down gunning of the G'Vrahn, but that's probably being *really* greedy ;-)

 

[Triggy]

Jim? - there are a couple of ships in the game (Narn included) that are only a little bit out in terms of ability or style but as P&P is an update, only important or large changes are likely to be made. This means that for the Narn fleet it's only really their Battle and War PL ships that will be looked at as tweaking all of the pulse or ion cannon weaponry in the entire fleet is outside of the scope for this project. Other such examples would be swapping the pulse/mini-beam weaponry on the Shadow Omega to match the show - this is something that would be desirable but isn't likely to happen as it's not important enough. Making Shadow Fighters good enough to be chosen is important.

One of the problems with making the change you suggest to the G'Quan/G'Tal is that what do you do to the G'Lan? It's an interesting approach but I like the Damage/Crew increase to at least 10 because as the others point out the Narn are the "brawlers" of the races on offer. If this is the case you have to be very careful not to overgun it too. Would you have any other approach to the ship or don't you feel that the G'Quan should be much tougher?

 

[Da Boss]

I would tend to be happy with the Q'Quan and Variants going to 6 AD on their Boresight beam - I can't see it making a huge difference to the variants as their beam is presently weak and improving that one system should not affect the other parts of the ship - it would also be easier to implement - just add 2 dice - one line done - is it enough - not sure but it is a start and makes the ship more like the nasty beam ship it seemed to be?

Good news re Shadow fighters - lets hope we all agree what makes them usable :wink: