About the Narn...

[Da Boss]

but as P&P is an update, only important or large changes are likely to be made. This means that for the Narn fleet it's only really their Battle and War PL ships that will be looked at as tweaking all of the pulse or ion cannon weaponry in the entire fleet is outside of the scope for this project. Other such examples would be swapping the pulse/mini-beam weaponry on the Shadow Omega to match the show - this is something that would be desirable but isn't likely to happen as it's not important enough. ?

One thing about this is alot of changes can be made with one line - a couple of pages could cover a large number of ships............

As presently the only source of ship sheets is the very kind stalwats who make their ship viewers it should not effect MGP too much. It would be sad to miss the opportunity to get everything right (or as much as can be done?) I know its not your decision but for instance there is a lot of concern about much fo the Abbai list............

 

[Burger]

As presently the only source of ship sheets is the very kind stalwats who make their ship viewers it should not effect MGP too much.

It would only take me 5 minutes to update it, too

 

[Rawwar]

I sort of agree with Triggy & then again I don't.

I agree that if the Narn become tougher you have to be carefull with the firepower as they stay around longer. I disagree in as much as I don't believe a simple DP/Crew hike will get the job done.

Admittedly the ship might be around longer but if it takes as many crits as it does at present it will be useless well before it's destroyed making the upgrade meaningless.

There is also an issue of defending said ship from enemy wolf packs.

 

[Jim?]

One of the problems with making the change you suggest to the G'Quan/G'Tal is that what do you do to the G'Lan? It's an interesting approach but I like the Damage/Crew increase to at least 10 because as the others point out the Narn are the "brawlers" of the races on offer. If this is the case you have to be very careful not to overgun it too. Would you have any other approach to the ship or don't you feel that the G'Quan should be much tougher?

I think that upping the damage of the G'Quan will really only make it drift around in space for a bit longer before getting killed. Most of the time, I accumulate massive numbers of crit effects that make the G'Quan a non-combat effective ship long before it dies. An extra few points of damage really doesn't alter that to much of a degree.

I realize that Frazi's on escort duty (pretty much the only use for them unless there's stuff with low/no anti-fighter about) can minimize the effect of missiles or other long ranged, interceptable weapons for a turn or so, but they get shot down fast... after that point, the crit fishing can really get going and the -1 ADs really mount up fast in 2e.

Giving the G'Tal an interceptor would (in my opinion) make it a really good option. It already has a damage upgrade over the G'Quan, so it could stay where it is there. Possibly giving the Bin'Tak an interceptor as well would be nice.

As for the G'Lan, keep it with 4 AD of Medium Lasers @ range 18, then give it's Mag Gun another dice... it is the Mag Cruiser, after all

 

[Triggy]

I really do think people are getting a little carried away with the "accumulate crits and drift about" angle - most Battle and War PL ships have this issue (and it's not the be all and end all anyway although it is important) but it still doesn't mean that you have to give up on balance. The best comparisons are to other Battle PL ships, of which the Omega and the Avioki are probably the best options. Going to 6AD beam with less range is an option but in combination with an increase to toughness (that will probably happen one way or the other), something needs to give.

Da Boss - it's not that it will take a lot of space to make alterations to ships, it's that a large number of changes are not wanted. This is because for the most part although there are a few ships that are a bit more or less powerful than others, there aren't so many that are either broken (too good or too poor) or are iconic and aren't being used. On that basis, the only changes the Narn really need are to the Battle and War PL ships.

 

[Da Boss]

If I was a narn player (great maker forbid ) I would want more beaminess rather than a few damage points.

As a opponent if I see a G'Quon on the table I think "oh good / thats a relief" and thats probably not a good sign.......

re the changes - I can see not wanting to change too many ships but there a few that only a need a little bit of TLC (or abuse) to make the game even better? Its probably easier to change ships than invent new "exciting" rules?

 

[Foxmeister]

I really do think people are getting a little carried away with the "accumulate crits and drift about" angle - most Battle and War PL ships have this issue

Yes they do - that's an issue with the critical system as it is. The system heavily favours "not getting hit" (e.g. stealth, dodge, interceptors etc) over purely soaking damage, because it's the hits that cause the crits and these have a disproportionate effect on the larger, more expensive, ships.

Adding 10 damage to the G'Quan and an extra AD to the beam won't make the G'Quan any more compelling to field IMHO, and that is what you should be trying to achieve. Even with your tweaks, a Var'Nic and a Dag'Kar is still going to reap far more rewards on the table, and as such is a far better use of a Battle FAP.

A 25" 4AD F arc beam and a SL e-mine would make it a much more usable ship and bring it closer to the average for ships of its PL (still well outclassed by the horrific Veshatan!).

Regards,

Dave

 

[skavendan]

The problems I see are B arc combined with lumbering = uber slow.

Precise + accurate.

And more specifically aimed at the G'Quan here pathetic secondary weapons. WHY have 2 lots @ 8" ? And in all honesty there not even that powerfull!

Also to reflect the enduring nature of the narn ships I would make rolls of 1+2 Bulkhead hits. Thus actually absorbing some damage!

 

[Tzarevitch]

My thoughts (although I have posted most of them before)

G'Quan - Increase beam to 6D Boresight. Make e-mine slow-loading.

G'Lan - remove the medium lasers. Increase mag gun to 5d. This ship I'd consider increasing the range on the FA secondaries since it is designed to operate at short ranges. Replace the FA light pulse with heavy pulse (range 12). Remove the Anti-fighter.

G'Tal - 6d beam. Make FA light pulse cannons into heavy pulse. Interceptors 1, Anti fighter 2.

G'Quonth - 6d Beam. Remove e-mines. Reduce ion torps to 6d. Everything else should be the same as the G'Quan including fighters. The ship is now the ion-torp version of the G'Quan.

Bin-Tak - Increase command bonus to +2. Make e-mines slow loading. Add interceptors 1, Anti-fighter 3.

G'Vrahn - Remove fighters, carrier rating and command bonus to distinguish it in role from the Bin'Tak.

T'Loth - Change the FA light pulse cannon to range 12 heavy pulse cannon

G'Karith - 6D pulsar mine FA, 2D aft.

Ka'Tan - Remove e-mine. Replace with 2D pulsar mine forward.

Gorith - Speed 12.

As for the durability issue, I don't think cranking up the hit points of narn ships is a good idea. A special rule like the Pak'Ma'Ra may be better. Perhaps due to extreme reinforcement and compartmentalization Narn ships can sometimes convert a crit hit to a normal hit. As I recall, the fluff text from the rpg pretty much says that about the G'Quan.

Special Rule
Superior Compartmentalization - Due to the superior reinforcement and compartmentalization of Narn ships they can sometimes survive what would otherwise be a disastrous hit. On a roll of 5-6 the critical hit is resolved as a normal hit in all ways. Critical hits from precise weapons are not affected by this ability as by their nature they tend to defeat the defense system.

Tzarevitch

 

[Da Boss]

Special Rule
Superior Compartmentalization - Due to the superior reinforcement and compartmentalization of Narn ships they can sometimes survive what would otherwise be a disastrous hit. On a roll of 5-6 the critical hit is resolved as a normal hit in all ways. Critical hits from precise weapons are not affected by this ability as by their nature they tend to defeat the defense system.

Tzarevitch

I agree with some of the suggested tweeks - I am not sure about this rule in addition to them...............

 

[Clanger]

That special rule would make the Narn ships a good deal better in surviving. This rule then unbalances the Narn making them uber tough imho.

The only ships in the game which can do anything about crits are the ancient Vorlons and Shadows and they are meant to be the most advanced races in the galaxy. And I cannot see the low born Narns having an ability which outstrips them.

 

[skavendan]

I think it's far more important for the narn to actually do some damage than last longer.

One a hole though I find it rather odd that battle ships can blow up battle ships in a single volley.

 

[Rawwar]

Special Rule
Superior Compartmentalization - Due to the superior reinforcement and compartmentalization of Narn ships they can sometimes survive what would otherwise be a disastrous hit. On a roll of 5-6 the critical hit is resolved as a normal hit in all ways. Critical hits from precise weapons are not affected by this ability as by their nature they tend to defeat the defense system.

With you right up until you say Precise should stay as is simply because Precise is the utter bane of the Narn in the example I gave above I took 5 crits on my G'Lan if this had been a Precise heavy list I was up against I could've taken 10 :shock:

The other side of the coin here is if you up the resistance to crits you have to watch the firepower. I want the Narn Fleet to compete on the table not own it.

The only ships in the game which can do anything about crits are the ancient Vorlons and Shadows and they are meant to be the most advanced races in the galaxy. And I cannot see the low born Narns having an ability which outstrips them.

I've seen the Shadows owned by the ISA for one a few times, dumb I know but.. Shadows can get stunned too.

Vorlons get adaptive armour and can remove crits later on, the ISA gets the same armour, dodge, can close blast doors & can use fighters as interceptors. I know Vorlon players could do the interceptor thing to if they really wanted but is this realistic?

Minbari at range with Stealth could own both.

There are a few races that make the Shadows & Vorlons look a little less special than they should be & it those races funnily enough that own the Narn too. It's just not a good arguement that this would make the Narn better than the Shadows & Vorlons, one because it's debatable & two because other races already are. Though if you read the above I'm wary of upping the guns & toughness because it's very easy to go too far the other way.

 

[Jim?]

I really do think people are getting a little carried away with the "accumulate crits and drift about" angle - most Battle and War PL ships have this issue (and it's not the be all and end all anyway although it is important) but it still doesn't mean that you have to give up on balance. The best comparisons are to other Battle PL ships, of which the Omega and the Avioki are probably the best options. Going to 6AD beam with less range is an option but in combination with an increase to toughness (that will probably happen one way or the other), something needs to give.

The G'Quan is, after the changes you suggest, pretty close to the Avioki in terms of power, but it'd get destroyed by a Kaliva. It'd be about as tough as the Omega, if the latter didn't carry 4 T-Bolts. The secondaries are still a big swing in the Omega/Avioki's favour.

Even when it does get to shoot back, the Omega can ignore most of the G'Quan's fire with it's interceptors, and the Avioki/Kaliva can APTE to get out of the G'Quan's range pretty fast (for a slow, lumbering ship) while still firing with it's AP guns at range 12 as the ships come about.

Any of the above get killed by a Liati, though the Avioki/Kaliva's the best equipped to duke it out (Sit 9" in from a corner , All Stop and at least you'll be able to shoot at the Liati no matter where it goes) and the G'Quan's still the worst (no Aft bore and short ranged secondaries).

I'm not really sure what you can do to make the G'Quan as good as the Avioki/Omega. The former has good secondaries, an arced beam and the Kaliva version, the latter has brilliant fighters, interceptors, stronger beams and minibeams and T/L pulse in each flank.

Changing the Ion and pulse over on the G'Quan while making the pulse cannon up to medium would give it 10 dice of vanilla (range 10") and 6 T/L (range 8") in each arc, which wouldn't superpower it, in my opinion... and it'd still probably get torn a new one by a Liati... it just wouldn't be quite as easy to do.

The Primus would still have a big advantage over the G'Quan, too (crit fishing with it's F arc beam and closing to Ion Cannon range for the kill). Not even going near the Tinashi/Veshatan, Drakh Strike Cruiser, Ipsha Warglobe or Xonn.

On another matter, I'm not quite sure why giving the G'Quan a F arc beam with 4 dice would turn the Narn into the 2e beam team... I'm not saying it's my prefered option, but there are better fleets in place already to claim that particular title.

Not even going to the Minbos, the Drakh Strike Cruiser is a 58 damage/crew ship with speed 10, 4AD of Precise/DD beam to the front, AJE, Flight Computer, GEG 2, carrying an init sink and with AP/TL secondaries.

Just saying...

 

[skavendan]

Speed: 6 Damage: 55/13 Craft: 2 Frazi fl ights
Turn: 1/45o Crew: 70/19 Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 1, Interceptor 1, Jump Engine
Hull: 6 Troops: 8 In Service: 2242+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 4 Beam, Double Damage
Energy Mine 30 F 4 AP, Energy Mine, Slow-Loading, Triple Damage
Light Ion Cannon 12 F 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 A 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 P 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 S 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Pulse Cannon 8 F 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 A 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 P 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 S 6 SAP

That's how I'd make the "standard" G'Quan Which way I see it is abit more of a hold the line ship. I would have other varients for command + assault as well but off the top of my head I think those few small changes adding AP and SAP would make them hit more often and overall increase there affectivity with abit of a tweak to the weapons ranges and the removable of lumbering.

Also adding interceptor one doesn't add lots of defense but the little it does add will make the ship last alot longer and more importantly it will reduce the number of crits the ship is taking. The in service year would need changing to a more respectable year.

 

[Jim?]

Speed: 6 Damage: 55/13 Craft: 2 Frazi fl ights
Turn: 1/45o Crew: 70/19 Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 1, Interceptor 1, Jump Engine
Hull: 6 Troops: 8 In Service: 2242+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 4 Beam, Double Damage
Energy Mine 30 F 4 AP, Energy Mine, Slow-Loading, Triple Damage
Light Ion Cannon 12 F 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 A 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 P 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 S 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Pulse Cannon 8 F 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 A 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 P 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 S 6 SAP

That's how I'd make the "standard" G'Quan Which way I see it is abit more of a hold the line ship. I would have other varients for command + assault as well but off the top of my head I think those few small changes adding AP and SAP would make them hit more often and overall increase there affectivity with abit of a tweak to the weapons ranges and the removable of lumbering.

Also adding interceptor one doesn't add lots of defense but the little it does add will make the ship last alot longer and more importantly it will reduce the number of crits the ship is taking. The in service year would need changing to a more respectable year.

I like the idea a lot... makes it a tough brawler... but I don't think you can get away with SAP light pulse cannon, and the only AP Ion Cannon about are the Heavy ones from the Secundus, I don't think Narn would have the tech to make them...

Possibly give the Ion Cannon the AD you've given the Light Pulse, and make them DD with no other traits at range 8, then give them T/L Medium Pulse at range 10 with the AD you've given the Ion cannon. That'd make a competetive ship with a bit of punch in close without up gunning the beam... add another 5/1 damage and it'd be nice without going OTT.

 

[Tzarevitch]

The G'Quan's punch up close isn't the problem. The problem is the ship won't get up close very often and any ship that wants to get that close will probably outgun you. Honestly, the simplest fix is increase the beam to 6d and make the e-mines slow loading. Closing and spraying with short-range pulse fire is what the centauri do. Increasing the light pulse batteries just makes the G'Quan perform like a crappy version of a primus which is clearly not what it was designed to to. The ship's mains and secondaries reach to range 30" while its tertiaries reach range 8 and its speed is 6 with the lumbering quality. Nothing in that sentence evidences a ship that is intended to close range.

Those tertiary light ion cannon and light pulse cannon are to deal with light warships that get too close on a flank. They are not intended as a substitute for a proper main battery. The tertiaries on the G'Quan are just fine. Their job is to do as little as possible and that they do. Fix the mains and the secondaries. That is where the problem lies.

Tzarevitch

 

[l33tpenguin]

I remember reading somewhere that the whole idea around the design of the G'quan was a long range weapon platform, forsaking most of its short ranged batteries and relying on support ships for close in protection. That being said, it really needs some work on its ranged firepower

 

[skavendan]

I like the idea a lot... makes it a tough brawler... but I don't think you can get away with SAP light pulse cannon, and the only AP Ion Cannon about are the Heavy ones from the Secundus, I don't think Narn would have the tech to make them...

Possibly give the Ion Cannon the AD you've given the Light Pulse, and make them DD with no other traits at range 8, then give them T/L Medium Pulse at range 10 with the AD you've given the Ion cannon. That'd make a competetive ship with a bit of punch in close without up gunning the beam... add another 5/1 damage and it'd be nice without going OTT.

Ok well side the point that "Narn would have the tech to make them" remember that the Narns will sell and buy just about anything to anyone in series at least. So I don't see why it is impossible however AP DD would work just as well to me. I don't play narn so my views might be abit off.

I'd rather not add to the beam as you will note I made the E mines rather decent. That was just the off the top of my head standard G'Quan and I find rolling 4+ rather easy. The initial problem was the B arc + lumbering so in a way in this mod they have got a upgrade just not a really obvious one.

I'll write up some varient idea's to post up later.

 

[Target]

Speed: 6 Damage: 55/13 Craft: 2 Frazi fl ights
Turn: 1/45o Crew: 70/19 Special Rules: Anti-Fighter 1, Interceptor 1, Jump Engine
Hull: 6 Troops: 8 In Service: 2242+
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Heavy Laser Cannon 30 B 4 Beam, Double Damage
Energy Mine 30 F 4 AP, Energy Mine, Slow-Loading, Triple Damage
Light Ion Cannon 12 F 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 A 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 P 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Ion Cannon 10 S 10 AP,Twin-Linked
Light Pulse Cannon 8 F 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 A 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 P 6 SAP
Light Pulse Cannon 6 S 6 SAP

That's how I'd make the "standard" G'Quan Which way I see it is abit more of a hold the line ship. I would have other varients for command + assault as well but off the top of my head I think those few small changes adding AP and SAP would make them hit more often and overall increase there affectivity with abit of a tweak to the weapons ranges and the removable of lumbering.

Also adding interceptor one doesn't add lots of defense but the little it does add will make the ship last alot longer and more importantly it will reduce the number of crits the ship is taking. The in service year would need changing to a more respectable year.

Thats a little too much, people are in danger of making it far superior to a primus. Which that particular version is.