About the collapse of the EWF

[The King]

The final purpose of the EWF to create the Great Dragon seems very similar to the Second Council of the 1st age to create a god (wasn't it also called Council of Friends something?).
Did then the Dragonnewts and the dragons destroyed the EWF because the human concept of godhood is so weird to dragons? Godhood means a innate perfection while the dragonnewts stages imply a constant progression toward it.
Or did they fear the Great Dragon would have been corrupted by this human intervention?
After all, an pseudocosmic egg precluded the creation of Nysalor (http://www.mit.edu/~thebeast/RQ/Cults/Gbaji.html)

 

[soltakss]

The dragonewts destroyed the EWF for their own reasons.

Some say that the EWF set themselves up as gods to be worshipped, others say that the EWF had a warped version of dragonhood that the dragonewts acted against them.

Personally, I think they just wanted to give the Dragons a nice big meal.

 

[The King]

Yes, this is also possible. As if one would like to befriend a lion. Whatever the level of companionship developped, it is still a lion with hunter instinct.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Thought I'd re-animate an old thread which relates to what I'm thinking about in my campaign. Looking for inputs and suggestions.

It seems, from what I've read, that Dragonewts are aware of the future, since it is merely a part of existence?

Does it follow that the EWF is merely an experiment by Dragonewts to see if they can make other races think in a draconic way and then observe the effect. I say this as it seems that when the experiment seemed to go awry the Dragonewts stopped giving info about the future to the EWF and then finally decided 'well, wasn't that interesting?' and killed all the leaders overnight.

I say 'merely' in a Dragonewt way, notwithstanding the effect it has on human history.

Alternatively it is carried out in the name of some obscure draconic concept along the lines of 'it just Is'. Either way, the Dragonewts know what's coming.

Are they creating the circumstances that make future events that they are aware of, possible?

 

[Loz]

In interesting paradox.

Only the True Dragons and Inhuman Kings are aware of all aspects of time. Whether they engineer those aspects or not is something, probably, for your own campaign.

However, as far as the human agencies are concerned, the Eternal Dragon Ring (Isgangdrang, Lord Great Burin, Lorenkarten, etc) pretty much get too big for their boots. They attain a semi-dragonhood which may well prove to be quite alarming to the dragonewts, as it wrecks the egg/birth/rebirth cycle they are so attuned to. If all humans were to achieve a similar status, then infinity would remain broken and leave the universe open to the return of Orxili.

So the dragonewts are doing several things at once. They're acting according to Right Action. They're also effectively culling the EWF to preserve dragonewt nature, and ensuring that only the True Dragons are in a position to mend infinity and bring about complete change in Glorantha in the only way it should be conceived - ie, from a purely draconic perspective. No human, not even Obduran, can achieve that level of consciousness.

Up until the time that the Eternal Dragon Ring starts to get too powerful, and manifesting real draconic potential, the dragonewts are prepared to tolerate the EWF and its dabblings. I don't think they have created the EWF as an experiment - but they're prepared to see what happens with it because, until it reaches a certain point, its Right Action. Course, the Inhuman Kings are fully aware of the ultimate consequences, but it nwould be Wrong Action to put a stop to the EWF before the Eternal Dragon Ring becomes too powerful.

 

[richaje]

Up until the time that the Eternal Dragon Ring starts to get too powerful, and manifesting real draconic potential, the dragonewts are prepared to tolerate the EWF and its dabblings. I don't think they have created the EWF as an experiment - but they're prepared to see what happens with it because, until it reaches a certain point, its Right Action. Course, the Inhuman Kings are fully aware of the ultimate consequences, but it nwould be Wrong Action to put a stop to the EWF before the Eternal Dragon Ring becomes too powerful.

Keep in mind that even the Inhuman King remembers the Unity of the Dawn. The ability of the Third Council to invoke that Unity grows ever-weaker, but the dragonewts will not betray the Third Council until 1042 (although they likely began plotting as early as 927).

Jeff

 

[Cleombrotus]

I quite like the idea that the EWF is fatally flawed by the human inability to comprehend it. The Eternal Dragon Ring think they understand it, but they simply don't as they are perceiving it from a humanistic point of view. They cannot totally divorce the mystic spiritual from the mystic material inasmuch as they still see what they are striving for as a tangible reward.

The finger that points at the moon is not the moon and all that.

Up until the time that the Eternal Dragon Ring starts to get too powerful, and manifesting real draconic potential, the dragonewts are prepared to tolerate the EWF and its dabblings.

So were the EWF destroyed because they got it right, rather than because they got it wrong?

I wonder if it's going too far to say that the Dragonewts allowed the concept of Dragonlord to be created because they knew that such knowledge was necessary for certain outcomes in the future. I love this kind of thing since it creates a tangibly epic feel in campaigns where it surfaces.

I also know that it's far too absolute an answer to such an important Gloranthan question.

If Argrath invokes the power of the EWF then presumably it is with the blessing, or perhaps the 'awareness of the inevitability' of the Dragonewts? Or are they blindsided by the Dragonslaying aspect of Orlanth? Hmmm...

 

[Cleombrotus]

Keep in mind that even the Inhuman King remembers the Unity of the Dawn. The ability of the Third Council to invoke that Unity grows ever-weaker, but the dragonewts will not betray the Third Council until 1042 (although they likely began plotting as early as 927).

So does the Inhuman King in the Second Age also 'remember' the Dragonkill, the Dragonrise and the Hero Wars?

Does the Draconic concept of Existence encapsulate all of Time? Does this mean that Dragons and Dragonewts are still effectively in a state of "timeless simultaneity" like the Godtime, at least in terms of their perceptions, if not their material existence?

 

[richaje]

Keep in mind that even the Inhuman King remembers the Unity of the Dawn. The ability of the Third Council to invoke that Unity grows ever-weaker, but the dragonewts will not betray the Third Council until 1042 (although they likely began plotting as early as 927).

So does the Inhuman King in the Second Age also 'remember' the Dragonkill, the Dragonrise and the Hero Wars?

Does the Draconic concept of Existence encapsulate all of Time? Does this mean that Dragons and Dragonewts are still effectively in a state of "timeless simultaneity" like the Godtime, at least in terms of their perceptions, if not their material existence?

Perhaps. It is hard to say what the Inhuman King knows, what he is willing to communicate, and what he can communicate. He was a part of the Unity Battle and the Unity Council, something which Argrath will draw on as well.

Jeff

 

[Loz]

So were the EWF destroyed because they got it right, rather than because they got it wrong?

I don't think its a question of right or wrong. The EWF just attained a level of awareness and capability that the dragonewts and dragons deemed to be as far as they could go.

Does the Draconic concept of Existence encapsulate all of Time? Does this mean that Dragons and Dragonewts are still effectively in a state of "timeless simultaneity" like the Godtime, at least in terms of their perceptions, if not their material existence?

Only the Nobles and Inhuman Kings have this kind of perception. The lower stages are still tied to a material view of time - although they know it to be an illusion.

 

[Cleombrotus]

Only the Nobles and Inhuman Kings have this kind of perception. The lower stages are still tied to a material view of time - although they know it to be an illusion.

Yes, but I mean in the sense that Dragonewt 'policy' is guided by individuals who do have this kind of perception. So if we refer to Dragonewts collectively, they are guided by this kind of knowledge, or rather guided by their own sense of the inevitable, or rather still, that since there is no Time as such, then everything has already 'happened' as far as Dragonewts are concerned and they are merely fulfilling their role in the great Draconic scheme of things.

However, I don't want to get too far into this side of stuff. I'm trying to find some simple reasons why certain things happened.

Is the stuff on the Dragonrise ever going to see print, by the way?

 

[richaje]

However, I don't want to get too far into this side of stuff. I'm trying to find some simple reasons why certain things happened.

Is the stuff on the Dragonrise ever going to see print, by the way?

I think it is probably always a mistake to look for a "simple reason" for why dragonewts do as they do.

Greg will be likely dealing with the Dragonrise when he gets to his Argrath Book. There was never a finished scenario by Greg.

Jeff

 

[Loz]

Yes, but I mean in the sense that Dragonewt 'policy' is guided by individuals who do have this kind of perception.

I think as Jeff says, its wise not to plumb too deeply into it. However, as far as any kind of policy is concerned, its correct that the Inhuman King will dictate direction for the entire nest - although the different stages of dragonewts are only ever really guided by what's important to them (in other words, what constitutes Right Action) at their particular stage. So crested dragonewts, for example, probably won't ever be told of any grand schemes or happenings. Tailed Priests, on the other hand, will have deeper knowledge, but not necessarily the ability or desire to do anything with it.

For dragonewts, I doubt planning comes easily, because it enforces constraints on behaviour as well as constraints such as time and materials. So as far as any Master Plan to eradicate the EWF is concerned, then the Inhuman King will know it will happen but doesn't plan for it until the natural time arises. Up until then, its simply another part of the cycle that is known, but inconsequential. Clearly this what perturbs humans: if they knew they were to be eradicated, they'd most certainly be taking steps to prevent it.

 

[StephenT]

A thought came to me reading this thread:

The dragonewts and dragons destroy the EWF. They kill its leaders, consume its cities and peoples, and tear the empire apart. That's bad, right?

But what's the most sacred and holy dragonewt ritual? Utuma. When they destroy themselves, tear their own body apart. And from the wreckage, the dragonewt is reborn again in a new, purer and more refined form.

Just like Argrath's empire will reawaken from the wreckage of the EWF - and the intervening 600 years is no time at all for an immortal dragonewt.

So maybe it's all carefully planned...

 

[The King]

However, I don't want to get too far into this side of stuff. I'm trying to find some simple reasons why certain things happened.

Is the stuff on the Dragonrise ever going to see print, by the way?

I think it is probably always a mistake to look for a "simple reason" for why dragonewts do as they do.

Greg will be likely dealing with the Dragonrise when he gets to his Argrath Book. There was never a finished scenario by Greg.

Jeff

If the dragon helps the Orlanthi it is probably because they can't sustain chaos.

 

[richaje]

However, I don't want to get too far into this side of stuff. I'm trying to find some simple reasons why certain things happened.

Is the stuff on the Dragonrise ever going to see print, by the way?

I think it is probably always a mistake to look for a "simple reason" for why dragonewts do as they do.

Greg will be likely dealing with the Dragonrise when he gets to his Argrath Book. There was never a finished scenario by Greg.

Jeff

If the dragon helps the Orlanthi it is probably because they can't sustain chaos.

There is much much much more to the Dragonrise than that. Heck, I don't think that even plays into it.

Jeff

 

[The King]

Yes, you're right. He initially thought his arse was itchy and he discovered that Lunars were responsible for this pathological allergy but you're too smart to mention it.

 

[Cleombrotus]

But what's the most sacred and holy dragonewt ritual? Utuma. When they destroy themselves, tear their own body apart. And from the wreckage, the dragonewt is reborn again in a new, purer and more refined form.

Just like Argrath's empire will reawaken from the wreckage of the EWF

Like the symmetry.
And it is still unknown exactly why he was sometimes known as Argrath Dragonlord.
An elaborately ironic Dragonewt revenge plan for Orlanth's dragonslayings?

On a completely different note, although perhaps not, why does the constellation of Orlanth's Ring have a Dragon in it?

 

[richaje]

Yes, you're right. He initially thought his arse was itchy and he discovered that Lunars were responsible for this pathological allergy but you're too smart to mention it.

Huh?

 

[richaje]

On a completely different note, although perhaps not, why does the constellation of Orlanth's Ring have a Dragon in it?

That's the head of Sh'arkazeel the Father of Dragons. According to the Orlanthi, Sh'arkazeel laid claim to the lands of Orlanth's mother (where Orlanth wanted to settle the gods). Orlanth and Sh'arkazeel had a cosmic battle in the Middle Air and Orlanth cut off Sh'arkazeel's head and now carries it as a source of power. Orlanth resides in the Dragon's Head (and made it his hall).

The EWF maintains that Orlanth performed the Utuma ceremony for Sh'arkazeel.