Arch Lector Petrovski
Mongoose
I suppose so. I just thought the commentary would be amusing.
Abbai
- Thread starter chainmailler
- Start date
I did meet one of the folks who plays up in Mongoose Steele's area, and he said he asks as a matter of etiquette that you not measure ranges while moving. That could change things.
Not sure it was the same group but met someone else there who allowed fighters that were supporting ships to move after being moved with the ship, effectively adding the ships speed to the fighters.
Not saying either is wrong btw, just saying that you often see differing rules interpretations. That would be something I would like to see in a write up, are we really playing by the same rules?
We've been playing a lot of games lately, and we often adjust fleet choices to try to get the number of sinks fairly close together. This can really work against some races, and helps out the battle level and above ships. It was a formal house rule, just something we started doing, but it will definitely warp our results on say a G'Quon test, if we don't at least try to just sink it to death.
- I probably am being over sensitive about the whiner comment, I get tired of having to defend myself against personal attacks when real issues are raised. After the last political season around here, too many times folks ignore the issue you bring up, and just call you names to discredit your argument.
Ripple
Not sure it was the same group but met someone else there who allowed fighters that were supporting ships to move after being moved with the ship, effectively adding the ships speed to the fighters.
Not saying either is wrong btw, just saying that you often see differing rules interpretations. That would be something I would like to see in a write up, are we really playing by the same rules?
We've been playing a lot of games lately, and we often adjust fleet choices to try to get the number of sinks fairly close together. This can really work against some races, and helps out the battle level and above ships. It was a formal house rule, just something we started doing, but it will definitely warp our results on say a G'Quon test, if we don't at least try to just sink it to death.
- I probably am being over sensitive about the whiner comment, I get tired of having to defend myself against personal attacks when real issues are raised. After the last political season around here, too many times folks ignore the issue you bring up, and just call you names to discredit your argument.
Ripple
so essentially, mongoose steels opinions are probably based upon he effects of house rules, which really can't be deemed as reliable or carrying much weight (assuming this heresay reflects actual facte of course)
if I defended the G'Quan on the basis we house rule an 8 dic beam, then my opinion is obviously flawed.
if I defended the G'Quan on the basis we house rule an 8 dic beam, then my opinion is obviously flawed.
LOL... if someone asked me that, I'd ask them as a metter of etiquette that they tell me their super secret plans! Or if I was feeling a little less sarcastic, refer them to page 3, spaceships have advanced computer sensors...Ripple said:
I get what you mean though, yes a write-up would need to state what house rules were in effect, in fact if the write-up is detailed enough it should be evident. And hiff is right too, the whole point of this exercise is to show how the present Abbai fleet as written is either over- or under-powered according to different groups. hiff care to play the "overpowered" side of the table?
B_Steele
Mongoose
Uhm...no. The fighter-movement thing might have been a mistake on behalf of the player, but we have no such house rule in my area. Same goes for the etiquette thing.
I'm fine with people measuring their ranges and such, but when players are drawing out geometric schematics that mark down firing arcs (using glass beads to say, "this is where your fore arc ends", etc.), potential ranges (measuring "well, if you move at normal speed this will be your potential range") and moving their fighters around pre-measured templates for their e-mines to make sure they don't accidentally hit their own guys.
Essentially, measuring ranges is cool by us...but it is etiquette and sportsmanly not to take that to a ridiculous level. It takes an element of fun out of the game and slows everything down to a crawl - especially in a timed match for a tournament.
Does that make more sense?
-Bry
But surely that kind of measurement is exactly what the computer sensors of a spacecraft would do?
I agree if someone is doing it obsessively for every ship, every turn then it does slow down the game and make it boring, and something should be said. But doing such things, if one is speedy and efficient about it, is part of the game. I do it in moderation myself, and have no objections if my opponent does too. It is a game of strategy after all, not a guessing game of who can most correctly estimate what 6" looks like (on a gaming table
).
Anyway,,, since there is such a disparity of opinion on the Abbai, I'd still like to see two conflicting reports as discussed above, so we can see what one player is doing right whereas another is going wrong.
I agree if someone is doing it obsessively for every ship, every turn then it does slow down the game and make it boring, and something should be said. But doing such things, if one is speedy and efficient about it, is part of the game. I do it in moderation myself, and have no objections if my opponent does too. It is a game of strategy after all, not a guessing game of who can most correctly estimate what 6" looks like (on a gaming table
).Anyway,,, since there is such a disparity of opinion on the Abbai, I'd still like to see two conflicting reports as discussed above, so we can see what one player is doing right whereas another is going wrong.
Burger said:But surely that kind of measurement is exactly what the computer sensors of a spacecraft would do?
I agree if someone is doing it obsessively for every ship, every turn then it does slow down the game and make it boring, and something should be said. But doing such things, if one is speedy and efficient about it, is part of the game. I do it in moderation myself, and have no objections if my opponent does too. It is a game of strategy after all, not a guessing game of who can most correctly estimate what 6" looks like (on a gaming table
Anyway,,, since there is such a disparity of opinion on the Abbai, I'd still like to see two conflicting reports as discussed above, so we can see what one player is doing right whereas another is going wrong.
agreed thats how we play too - usually not that slow and if boths sides do it - can be as easy as if i move here - can you hit me - yes /no agreed between the two. Same wth stuff like boresight - easier and better to both agree what is and isn't.
I'm afraid I agree with Burger, Da Boss and CZuchlag - Mongoose Steele's principles of ettiquette are fine and even a good thing for his local gaming group but in pretty much every game I've played (at home and in tournaments) meticulously measuring arcs (e.g. to end a move on the edge of two of your arcs but only in the weaker enemy arc), planning possible moves and measuring exactly where an enemy could move (e.g. to ensure it is physically impossible to move out of arc) and using predictions based on these measurements (e.g. we started 36" apart so even if you all power to engines on both turns you cannot be in range of my ship on turn 2 - this stops any minor errors in physically moving miniatures affecting the actual game).
Actually after my experiences of 40K tournaments, even on the top tables many players "inch pinch" and when they move their troops in to charge on turn 2/3 (only moving them 4" with an assault range of 6") I point out the logical argument that says they can't. Some absolutely hate me as their plans for the turn are based on this but I hate players who gain advantages from deliberate sloppiness (or worse, cheating). It's funny how the tournament organisers never rule against me though...
It's this philosophy that makes me point out every time when players mismeasure - to stop arguments later in the game. In ACtA it's usually players turning 55-60 degrees on a 45 degree turn rather than inch pinching but the effect is just the same (e.g. with two turns of 45 degrees how did you come to be able to fire on a target that was over 135 degrees away with your forward arc?)
Sorry for this little rant but I felt the need to explain a little of where I'm coming from too.
Actually after my experiences of 40K tournaments, even on the top tables many players "inch pinch" and when they move their troops in to charge on turn 2/3 (only moving them 4" with an assault range of 6") I point out the logical argument that says they can't. Some absolutely hate me as their plans for the turn are based on this but I hate players who gain advantages from deliberate sloppiness (or worse, cheating). It's funny how the tournament organisers never rule against me though...
It's this philosophy that makes me point out every time when players mismeasure - to stop arguments later in the game. In ACtA it's usually players turning 55-60 degrees on a 45 degree turn rather than inch pinching but the effect is just the same (e.g. with two turns of 45 degrees how did you come to be able to fire on a target that was over 135 degrees away with your forward arc?)
Sorry for this little rant but I felt the need to explain a little of where I'm coming from too.
I will talk to our local Abbai player and see if he wants to play a game the next time we meet in 2 weeks. If so, I will take the time to right up a proper report and take pictures.
tschuma
Burger
Silience I kill you was from Achmed the dead terriost created by Jeff Dunham the ventriloquist. He had a Holiday Special on Comedy Channel last week.
tschuma
Burger
Silience I kill you was from Achmed the dead terriost created by Jeff Dunham the ventriloquist. He had a Holiday Special on Comedy Channel last week.
I'm usually like Triggy in this one. I always point out if a player is getting loose with measures due to not wanting folks to get mad when it is a matter of making the shot or not.
To be clear on my opinion, the Abbai do not get just spanked. They give a fair bit of beating back, but due to low single damage output, they tend to lose more ships faster. If you lose, you lose by degree, until the tip over point hits and you start coming apart. One reason I asked if the games go to completion.
I've been in a lot of games my friends told me looked like they were going my way, but played out they crashed. I've also been in a number of games that we should have played farther because I no longer saw many options, but on reflection I saw the opening I'd missed.
Abbai seem to exist more on the edge of disaster, longer than most others, because of the mechanic of the shield. Get your opponent below the ability to cut through fast enough, and you snap back to winning from barely holding on. I just don't see it happening all that often.
The new shield SA gets them much more into the range, so may have fixed them just by that and the bimith change. I still feel they won't do well vs a really crunch race though.
Sean
To be clear on my opinion, the Abbai do not get just spanked. They give a fair bit of beating back, but due to low single damage output, they tend to lose more ships faster. If you lose, you lose by degree, until the tip over point hits and you start coming apart. One reason I asked if the games go to completion.
I've been in a lot of games my friends told me looked like they were going my way, but played out they crashed. I've also been in a number of games that we should have played farther because I no longer saw many options, but on reflection I saw the opening I'd missed.
Abbai seem to exist more on the edge of disaster, longer than most others, because of the mechanic of the shield. Get your opponent below the ability to cut through fast enough, and you snap back to winning from barely holding on. I just don't see it happening all that often.
The new shield SA gets them much more into the range, so may have fixed them just by that and the bimith change. I still feel they won't do well vs a really crunch race though.
Sean
