A simple G'Quan poll!

[Foxmeister]

Ok, so on one of the other threads Hindsight said:

You left out that the G'Quan still sucks...

To which Katadder replied:

doesnt suck, 1AD less beam than omega plus e-mine and new narn CBD and having 17 more damage = g'quan wins in g'quan/omega battle.

Now, I was going to reply directly to that post that in my opinion, the new G'Quan still sucks, but I decided that a poll would be more interesting.

I've deliberately made the poll very simple with just two answers - yes and no. I'm sure there is someone out there who has a different or more complex opinion on the subject of the G'Quans suckiness, but I shall leave that to the thread proper for comments.

Where do I stand on this?

IMHO, it still sucks, for the following reasons:

1. Poor 5AD beam - if TTT remains as full AD, I could possibly live with it but since it's likely to go to half AD the G'Quan is going to getting hosed when compared its contemporaries when on TTT (i.e. the Omega)
2. Poor speed and lumbering
3. Crappy short ranged secondaries that almost never get rolled
4. O/S e-mine
5. Extra damage, and new Narn CBD (if it remains as is), does nothing when it'll be critted out of play before it loses all its HP.
6. Var'Nic and Dag'Kar still a much better use of a battle point. Weapons load out of these two ships is far superior - similar beam, better e-mine, and ion torps. Plus you have similar HP and crit redundancy for two hulls.
7. Variants offer nothing of value or significant enough differences to make them viable.

Note - I'm not saying it's the worst battle level hull out there, just that IMHO it still sucks!

Regards,

Dave

 

[H]

it's not great, but then it's not utterly dismal. I'm tired of hearing about the comparison with the omega, which is also a slow(ish) lumbering boresighted beast. a 5 dice beam isn't bad, if you want bad, look at the avioki, less hit points, no fighters, an average of 4 dice beam (ok 8 in one go "can" be brutal) and less secondary dice, and no special CBD.

at the end of the day, battleships across almost any fleet are less effective than 2 raid vessels. I also don't think they are done with the G'Quan, it has a lot of posts (probably too many!!!) and a lot of fans for it's iconic status and cool looks! Greg seems interested in helping the G'Quan in some way, and we have to put some faith in the process, but if we continually go on and on, people will ignore it out of spite.
as to it's varients, the G'Quanth isn't bad, it's just in the shade of the other 2 warships, and the G'Lan and G'Tal are in the same boat as the G'Quan.

 

[Greg Smith]

It has enough secondaries, but lacks the range and speed to them into action. This is a complaint against several ships - the Lakara, the Octurion are two examples.

I'm starting to like the G'Tal - with 70 damage it is a bit of a beast, but it works as a sniper, which it isn't great at with only 5AD beam. But the +2 command is great for the Narn fleet.

I think the G'Lan is even worse than the base G'Quan becasue of its lack of range.

It is starting to look better than it was, but it still needs a little something more.

 

[H]

It has enough secondaries, but lacks the range and speed to them into action. This is a complaint against several ships - the Lakara, the Octurion are two examples.

I'm starting to like the G'Tal - with 70 damage it is a bit of a beast, but it works as a sniper, which it isn't great at with only 5AD beam. But the +2 command is great for the Narn fleet.

I think the G'Lan is even worse than the base G'Quan becasue of its lack of range.

It is starting to look better than it was, but it still needs a little something more.

have you/matt/ other playtesters reviewed the CBD and any alternative options for the narn/G'Quan/Varients. I liked the Idea of the G'Quanth dropping to battle, and become a torpedo version of the G'Quan (so no mines) meaning it would get taken if the torp balance was right. I think that was foxmeisters idea? also the thought of removing the beam entirely from the G'lan, and upping the Mag gun to make a true mag cruiser (almost like the kaliva is the TD version of the avioki, although the short rannge on the standard mag gun would make it difficult to get into combat)

 

[skavendan]

Ave said it before and I will probably say it again its a combination of;

1 speed is low for a warship
2 lumbering
3 poor range on the secondaries that combined with 1 never get used
4 B arc based so as a result most ships can avoid it.

Ok TTT is suppose to be an improvement. But seriously does nothing for the narn Come about is the same CQ check, and you have to designate target anyway so might as well use come about.

This hole can't move after turning cuz of lumbering also abit annoying ensuring the secondaries rarly fired in battle.

1 shot e mine, well this is up there with slow loading as far as am concerned half the damage and fire every turn simplify things! Get rid of the emine or give it a emine per turn.

The new CBD rule isn't going to make it to the printers so no point mentionning it.

 

[katadder]

most ships cannot get out of bore arcs unless the g'quan has to move 1st.
range 8 secondaries is not poor, it used to be average and is what the abbai have to put up with too but they dont have 30" beams and e-mines plus the lakara is just as slow and lumbering.

 

[skavendan]

most ships cannot get out of bore arcs unless the g'quan has to move 1st.

POINT SINK

range 8 secondaries is not poor, it used to be average

Key words that I read here are used to be average

and is what the abbai have to put up with

Couldn't care less we are talking about the narn G'Quan here

too but they dont have 30" beams and e-mines plus the lakara is just as slow and lumbering.

I would disagree here lets pretend I care for a minute and note some serious changes between the two:

Shields;
Interceptor 1;
Anti fighter 4;
Precise Beam (which is significantly more powerful in crit terms)
The E mine is 1 shot barly worth a mention the lakara can easy aford to take a round of fire and all ahead full into the battle since it has shields to protect it.

 

[katadder]

once those shields are down though its pretty crappy regenerate.
also you have fighters to help take down the shields and the 1 interceptor.

the g'quan is a good ship and I see no problem with it now as its pretty much on par with its closest cousin the omega and is actually better in some situations (fighting predominantly beam/mini beam fleets).

you mention point sink - the narn can do that too. and their init is better than almost all the league races, 2 of the EA fleets and on par with the 3rd plus the ISA.

 

[skavendan]

Ok so the fighters come screaming in needing 6s to hit the shields after interceptors knocks the hits down of course. the anti fighter goes go away annoying fly. regen rate is low yes but 12 shields for a battle level ship is GOOD.

I like the Narn myself but the new 4+ CBD rule will not be aproved as far as I can see it.

Narn always bring more sinks because there inti sucks. In all the games I have seen it is a rarity that the narn win init without having a command ship for the bonus.

 

[katadder]

lol against abbai you have a +4 bonus and +2 init is the average so doesnt suck (and neither does the newer g'quan). earth only get it at crusade, ISA only get that. most the league races are less than that.
remember the narn are actually quite young as a space faring race.

if you actually compare the 12 shields and one interceptor plus damage against the 1e one it used to have 54 damage and 8 interceptors plus 14AD all round. now its got 42 damage, 12 shields and 1 interceptor plus a nerf in firepower. so the 12 shields are only making up for the damage it lost anyway although yes this gives it a bit more crit redundancy but 1 interceptor at battle level is a bit crappy for a defensive race.

 

[Greg Smith]

once those shields are down though its pretty crappy regenerate.

6 is crappy?

 

[katadder]

2 unless using the SA which means you are not using the APTE SA for example to actually get into range. so yes.

 

[Greg Smith]

have you/matt/ other playtesters reviewed the CBD and any alternative options for the narn/G'Quan/Varients. I liked the Idea of the G'Quanth dropping to battle, and become a torpedo version of the G'Quan (so no mines) meaning it would get taken if the torp balance was right. I think that was foxmeisters idea? also the thought of removing the beam entirely from the G'lan, and upping the Mag gun to make a true mag cruiser (almost like the kaliva is the TD version of the avioki, although the short rannge on the standard mag gun would make it difficult to get into combat)

I think changing the ships to the extent suggested are probably beyond the small changes that will be in P&P.

We are definitely looking at the CBD and alternatives.

 

[H]

thats fair enough, though we have seen complete ship redesigns in S+P, ok the trolligan was aweful, but it was still done!

 

[Hindsight]

Hey I got quoted! Neat!

 

[l33tpenguin]

Hey I got quoted! Neat!

Now you need to get turned into a sig. Thats the next step up

 

[Hindsight]

It is good to aim high.

 

[Rawwar]

If our girlfriends sucked like a Q'Guan even we wouldn't be complaining. :wink:

 

[skavendan]

If our girlfriends sucked like a Q'Guan even we wouldn't be complaining. :wink:

I'd have to say mines better she should be called dyson

 

[Foxmeister]

If our girlfriends sucked like a Q'Guan even we wouldn't be complaining. :wink:

I don't even know what a Q'Guan is, but I clearly need to get one!!!!

Regards,

Dave