A few questions that will hopefully be answered in 2E

[Enalut]

These questions have come up as we have been discussing the upcoming new rules (and a few fo teh older ones) and it would be nice for Mongoose to preempt some rules "discussions" by actually addressign them in teh forthcoming rules:

1) Auxilary Craft and Hyperspace:
a) can Aux craft open thier own Jump Points (as opposed to a Jump gate?
b) Can Fighters be launched by ships in Hyperspace so that a ship can come into normal space with some or all its fighters deployed?
c) How do fighters behave when they come through a jump point? can they act normally or are they subject to the same restrictions as ships (unless they possess AJP)?

2) Point Defence Weapons, can they attack Ships? What about ships that are trying to skindance?

3) Can Fighters Running CAP be individually targetted themselves by:
a) other Aux craft so as to allow other ships to engage the ship?
b) by point defense weapons of ships that are in range?
c) by a ships general armorment?

4) Can Minibeams be CAF'ed?

5) Can atmospheric ships use thier principle weapons in the atmosphere of a a planet to target emplacements and or troops?

6) Can Agile ships still take turns as normal if they allstop? Such as move 1/4 spped make a turn and then move 2" more and take thier second turn, if this is less than 1/2 thier movement?

7) Can energy mines be redirected by a scout?

Edit: 8) Do ships that are skin dancing get thier dodge if shot at my precise weapons?

I am sure there are more, but thesea re the only ones I can recall at work.

Please feel free to suppliment this list.

I hope to spark a depate about these, but also to encurage Mongoose to try to think about how certain rules will play together and preempt debates that may arise.

 

[Enalut]

Another one that I rembered while reasing the JPB discussion (cut and pasted post):

9) When does the damage from a JPB happen? Is it instant or does it happen at the end of the movement (or event attack or end) phase?

For instance, can ships that have not moved yet avoid a JPB that opened on top of thme simply by moving out of range?

Decelaring when the attack happens could go a long way to balancing the tactic.

FULL DISCLOSURE I have used the tactic on a few occasions and have always played and argued that it happens instantly--before movement is finished.

 

[H]

ok, many of these answers exist now in the rules, or in the rulesmasters forum for 1st ed. but yes, some are quite specific to 2nd ed and it would be nice to know

These questions have come up as we have been discussing the upcoming new rules (and a few fo teh older ones) and it would be nice for Mongoose to preempt some rules "discussions" by actually addressign them in teh forthcoming rules:

1) Auxilary Craft and Hyperspace:
a) can Aux craft open thier own Jump Points (as opposed to a Jump gate?

no, it is a special action and fighters cannot perform special actions (apart from scanners to full)
b) Can Fighters be launched by ships in Hyperspace so that a ship can come into normal space with some or all its fighters deployed?

again no, which is a shame, i "think" this one got rulesmastered c) How do fighters behave when they come through a jump point? can they act normally or are they subject to the same restrictions as ships (unless they possess AJP)?
Fighters come under the same restrictions as all other ships.

2) Point Defence Weapons, can they attack Ships? What about ships that are trying to skindance?
This is purely a second ed question

3) Can Fighters Running CAP be individually targetted themselves by:
a) other Aux craft so as to allow other ships to engage the ship?
b) by point defense weapons of ships that are in range?
c) by a ships general armorment?

4) Can Minibeams be CAF'ed?

5) Can atmospheric ships use thier principle weapons in the atmosphere of a a planet to target emplacements and or troops?
their is a list of weapons that can be used to target emplacements in SFOS

6) Can Agile ships still take turns as normal if they allstop? Such as move 1/4 spped make a turn and then move 2" more and take thier second turn, if this is less than 1/2 thier movement?

7) Can energy mines be redirected by a scout?
currently, shipbusters yes, any other mines no
Edit: 8) Do ships that are skin dancing get thier dodge if shot at my precise weapons?

I am sure there are more, but thesea re the only ones I can recall at work.

Please feel free to suppliment this list.

I hope to spark a depate about these, but also to encurage Mongoose to try to think about how certain rules will play together and preempt debates that may arise

and JPB damage happens as soon as a jump point hits a ship

 

[Enalut]

Hiff, thank you for responding, and I know that some answers exist under teh current rules, but Mongoose has don some things to raise certain questions due to thier very sloppy (or intentionally ambigious) rules pronouncements--i.e. AJP on a fighter, Minibeams only being anti fighter agaistAux craft, and a falure to expalin what a ship with the atmosheric trait may due in an atmousphere, among many others.

Usually, these ambiguities arise when subsequent changes create an apparent incosistensy with an old rule or when someting new is added.

For instances, you are right that there si a list of weapns that can be fied from ORBIT to attack emplacements, but there si n where a discussion about what weapons can eb fired inside an atmousphere. Weknow fighters may use thier weapons, but we do not now if/how a ship can. And there is the prominent example of the White Star attacking the EA's Mars base to indicate that it should be permiable.

I am in no way trying to antagonize Mongoose, but merely pointing out everal of many more incnsistencies they have creatd over tiem and hoping that they willmake a particular effort to addres how all the various rules play together, rahtr than restate the original ictums without adressing the inconsistencies.

 

[lastbesthope]

All my answers are based on 1E rules.

1) Auxilary Craft and Hyperspace:

b) Can Fighters be launched by ships in Hyperspace so that a ship can come into normal space with some or all its fighters deployed?

again no, which is a shame, i "think" this one got rulesmastered

Actually hiff, ships in hyperspace CAN start in hyperspace with as many fighters deployed as they could if they were starting on the board. They just can't launch any more fighters until they come into realspace. It is best to have any fighters launched in said manner escorting the mothership so they come through the JP at the same time as the mother ship.

I have played in many Mongoose tournaments with my Nials escorting the WS as it comes out of the JP.

4) Can Minibeams be CAF'ed?


Edit: 8 ) Do ships that are skin dancing get thier dodge if shot at my precise weapons?

4) Yes, or at least I can think nothing that says they can't be. It's the extra rerolls that Beam weapons get that Mini-Beams don't.

8) nothing says they don't, so yes, they get to use Dodgem unless someone has a Precise Anti-Fighter weapon :lol:

9) When does the damage from a JPB happen? Is it instant or does it happen at the end of the movement (or event attack or end) phase?

For instance, can ships that have not moved yet avoid a JPB that opened on top of thme simply by moving out of range?

Decelaring when the attack happens could go a long way to balancing the tactic.

FULL DISCLOSURE I have used the tactic on a few occasions and have always played and argued that it happens instantly--before movement is finished.

In 1E, it happens instantly the jump point is opened. So no, you can't run out of the way, though you can use Dodge I think. As for 2E, don't know.

LBH

 

[Locutus9956]

I think the minibeam question may be specifically refering to 2nd Ed Minibeams (the always hit on a 4+ ones). Beams in 2nd ed cant be CAFed so it might logicially follow that neither can minibeams.

As for AJP on fighters and Minibeams antifighter, I wouldnt say the wording is particularly ambiguous, its quite clear if you read the rules carefully.

And atmospheric, last time I checked was VERY clear as to what a ship can do with it, it basically allows it to land (someone please correct me if Im wrong here, I dont have the books to hand). Atmospheric on a fighter allows it to strafe troops or chase other fighters into the atmosphere. Thats pretty much it.

 

[katadder]

1) Auxilary Craft and Hyperspace:
a) can Aux craft open thier own Jump Points (as opposed to a Jump gate?
already been answered, but no fighters will have AJE

b) Can Fighters be launched by ships in Hyperspace so that a ship can come into normal space with some or all its fighters deployed?
c) How do fighters behave when they come through a jump point? can they act normally or are they subject to the same restrictions as ships (unless they possess AJP)?
both already been answered

2) Point Defence Weapons, can they attack Ships? What about ships that are trying to skindance?
if you are on about the new antifighter trait - no, if you are on about the ISA upgrade refit then sure but not against skindancing targets

3) Can Fighters Running CAP be individually targetted themselves by:
a) other Aux craft so as to allow other ships to engage the ship?
b) by point defense weapons of ships that are in range?
c) by a ships general armorment?
they can be targeted by any weapons/point defense in range but if you already attempt to attack the ship they are protecting with aux craft then the fighters on CAP will already be in the dogfight, but you can just shoot them with any weapon if they not in a dogfight

4) Can Minibeams be CAF'ed?
no

5) Can atmospheric ships use thier principle weapons in the atmosphere of a a planet to target emplacements and or troops?
to target troops, yes they can - think this is explained in 1e but not sure

6) Can Agile ships still take turns as normal if they allstop? Such as move 1/4 spped make a turn and then move 2" more and take thier second turn, if this is less than 1/2 thier movement?
no

7) Can energy mines be redirected by a scout?
no apart from 1e ship breakers

8) Do ships that are skin dancing get thier dodge if shot at my precise weapons?
yes

9) When does the damage from a JPB happen? Is it instant or does it happen at the end of the movement (or event attack or end) phase?
already been answered

 

[Greg Smith]

4) Can Minibeams be CAF'ed?
no

Err, yes they can.

 

[katadder]

hmm odd, dont ever remember seeing that in the list of changes. stealth changes coming through.

 

[Greg Smith]

That's because it was never changed.

 

[Enalut]

Thank you all for partially answering the questions, but now here si a mechani question/argument:

Why cann't Anti Fighter weapons be used agaist ships if there are no Fighters in range and the Ship is within the 4" range?

Althernatively, at least Anti Fighter weapons should provide some defense agaist Skindancing and be able to shoot at those ships?

 

[Enalut]

I admit this has come up in 1E but it would be good to see Mongoose adress issues like this in 2E explicitly.

From Greg Smith
3) Can Fighters Running CAP be individually targetted themselves by:
a) other Aux craft so as to allow other ships to engage the ship?
b) by point defense weapons of ships that are in range?
c) by a ships general armorment?
they can be targeted by any weapons/point defense in range but if you already attempt to attack the ship they are protecting with aux craft then the fighters on CAP will already be in the dogfight, but you can just shoot them with any weapon if they not in a dogfight

What about other dogfighters? For instnace I have4 fighters: 2 T-Bolts and 2 Starfuries and am going to attack a Whitestar that is being escorted by a Nial. Cna I declare the Starfurries are engaign the Nial, allowiign the T-Bolts to engage the WS unmolested?

Does it depend on initiative?

 

[Commador Q]

Thank you all for partially answering the questions, but now here si a mechani question/argument:

Why cann't Anti Fighter weapons be used agaist ships if there are no Fighters in range and the Ship is within the 4" range?

Althernatively, at least Anti Fighter weapons should provide some defense agaist Skindancing and be able to shoot at those ships?

Anti- fighter weapons can shoot at ships. the anti-fighter X ship trait however, is an abstraction of lots of tiny funs that damage fighters but are insignifigant to larger vessils, and is more a way to deal with the legisticle nightmare of having fighters shoot before ships so they can be usefull in depleting the target's defences, but also allowing ships to use their superior range to damage or destroy formations of fighters before they get gacked.

if you were talking abut the effect of mini-beams as anti-fighter weapons, strict interpretation of the rules says they only gain Anti-fighter weapons trait, if they are targeting a "flight". i don't believe they were ment to be that restrictive, but that is what the rule actually says.

as for helping against skin dancing ships: the anti fighter X ship trait may be able to defend against them, but the point of skin dancing is getting so close to the enemy's hull that not only are you too close for their turrets to track you, but their allies can't fire on you without risking damage to the ship you are dancing on. (i've done this in an online game called vendetta it does work prety well if you can get and stay close enough).

 

[thatcash]

What about other dogfighters? For instnace I have4 fighters: 2 T-Bolts and 2 Starfuries and am going to attack a Whitestar that is being escorted by a Nial. Cna I declare the Starfurries are engaign the Nial, allowiign the T-Bolts to engage the WS unmolested?

Does it depend on initiative?

Yes it does (kind of...it also depends on the positioning of your fighters). The easiest thing to do is move your Starfuries first. The Nial automatically intercepts the first fighter making it's attack run. You then move the other Fury into the dogfight and let your T-bolts have at the WS.

The other way requires a little bit of pre-planning, but is useful if you've been losing init or you're on the losing end of a substantial init difference. In the previous round, have your Stafuries support your T-bolts (assuming 2 of each). your Furies are fast enough to keep up with the T-Bolts and the Nial can't get at your T-bolts as long as you have Furies supporting them. I believe this will stop one group of Fury supported T-bolts from attacking though because the group would have still been stopped by the Nial.

 

[katadder]

I admit this has come up in 1E but it would be good to see Mongoose adress issues like this in 2E explicitly.

From Greg Smith
3) Can Fighters Running CAP be individually targetted themselves by:
a) other Aux craft so as to allow other ships to engage the ship?
b) by point defense weapons of ships that are in range?
c) by a ships general armorment?
they can be targeted by any weapons/point defense in range but if you already attempt to attack the ship they are protecting with aux craft then the fighters on CAP will already be in the dogfight, but you can just shoot them with any weapon if they not in a dogfight

What about other dogfighters? For instnace I have4 fighters: 2 T-Bolts and 2 Starfuries and am going to attack a Whitestar that is being escorted by a Nial. Cna I declare the Starfurries are engaign the Nial, allowiign the T-Bolts to engage the WS unmolested?

Does it depend on initiative?

yes you can. as the fighters all move before any attacks are carried out so you would move the actual starfuries into (base to base) a dogfight with the nials. this would then mean the t-bolts can carry out their job.

 

[Ripple]

Not that I don't agree, but is that what the rules say? I know we had a discussion at one point on whether an escorting fighter would be dragged into a dogfight with the first fighter to attack, rather than move, with placement of the fighter being an issue. (ie it was possible in the truly huge fighter stacks to make fighter attacks that the escorts couldn't contact.)

Now it's not the way we play it. We have just sort of ignored the rule lately and played it as it sounds like its intended. But I do remember the discussion being some strange situations coming up do to wording.

Ripple

 

[Enalut]

This confusion was why I was askign these questions--to get Mongoose to answer them in the new addition, possibly with several examples.