A bigger, better Harrier

[J. L. Brown]

Not sure that I would consider gravitic focusing as "magictech", since gravitational lensing is a real thing. Unless airplanes, cars, elevators, hydroelectric dams, etc are magictech as well... Not like, well, jumpspace, which has no basis in reality.

We now have access to meta-materials (the whole field of Transformation Optics) which allow any arbitrarily-shaped object to act as an absolutely perfect lens. Our technology is only good enough to do this on the scale of microwaves (& maybe IR), but being able to do it with visible light & beyond seems like something we will conquer before too many more Technology Levels. It is the core of various 'Invisibility Cloak' technologies which seem to attract a lot of funding.

So maybe magictech ClarkeTech is less necessary here.

 

[Sigtrygg]

We had long debates about this on TML and sister lists.

Suffice to say, some people (including real physicists who were on the mailing list) consider this magictech and others do not. I'm perfectly willing to suspend disbelief for this technology so we can have the laser ranges we're used to in Traveller (after all, we have jump drives and contra grav as you correctly point out).

All gravitics is magi tech. There is no debate about this really. How is artificial gravity produced by the grav plates? How do acceleration compensators work etc.

The issue with grav focussing lasers is not that grav focussing doesn't exist, it is that artificial gravity is not real gravity. Gravitics produces localised gravity like effects.

On to the subject of grav focussed lasers - where is the gravitic lens? If it is in the laser array then the beam is still going to suffer diffraction. So is the grav itic lens projected between the ship and the target? In which case why can't you use the gravitic rrojector as a weapon directly.

The strength of the gravitic field needed is also something to consider, just how much gravity is needed to tightly focus light (real gravitic lensing doesn't work the way optical lenses do).

 

[Sigtrygg]

Refined magnetic bottle focussing.

How does magnetism focus light?

 

[Sigtrygg]

We now have access to meta-materials (the whole field of Transformation Optics) which allow any arbitrarily-shaped object to act as an absolutely perfect lens. Our technology is only good enough to do this on the scale of microwaves (& maybe IR), but being able to do it with visible light & beyond seems like something we will conquer before too many more Technology Levels. It is the core of various 'Invisibility Cloak' technologies which seem to attract a lot of funding.

So maybe magictech ClarkeTech is less necessary here.

The problem isn't focusing the beam, the problem is the diffraction within the beam at the ranges of starship combat. How do you stop the light waves/photons mutual interference and thats before considering quantum interactions.

 

[Condottiere]

How does magnetism focus light?

Donno.

But it all comes down to the understanding and manipulation of gravity.

Long range laser beams became coherent, one technological level after fusion reactors became viable.

And a magnetic bottle keeps things contained and compressed.

 

[Sigtrygg]

Donno.

I know that magnetic fields can have an affect on light polarisation, any anti-diffraction or focusing requires handwavium magitech.

But it all comes down to the understanding and manipulation of gravity.

Are ship[ gravitics anything to do with "real gravity" though? Can a ship's 1 g floor field be experienced at 300,000km and hold a moon in orbit? Do gravitcs actualy distort spacetime (unlikely) or cause an affect that has similar properites to what we call the interaction that is gravity?

Long range laser beams became coherent, one technological level after fusion reactors became viable.

I hadn't noticed that MgT had retconned laser TL.

And a magnetic bottle keeps things contained and compressed.

Only if they are affected by magnetism...

 

[Condottiere]

I would think that a magnetic bottle containing a fusion reaction likely requires more than one gravity force.

We do have the laser drill with a rather short range and inherently inaccuracy, which might have adopted focussing equipment directly based on the magnetic bottle.

Also, lots cheaper.

So, could be an option for laser weapon systems.

 

[MasterGwydion]

All gravitics is magi tech. There is no debate about this really. How is artificial gravity produced by the grav plates?

Before We understood how fission worked it would have seemed like magic as well, but just because we don't understand it, doesn't make it magictech.

How do acceleration compensators work etc.

The issue with grav focussing lasers is not that grav focussing doesn't exist, it is that artificial gravity is not real gravity. Gravitics produces localised gravity like effects.

On to the subject of grav focussed lasers - where is the gravitic lens? If it is in the laser array then the beam is still going to suffer diffraction. So is the grav itic lens projected between the ship and the target? In which case why can't you use the gravitic rrojector as a weapon directly.

The strength of the gravitic field needed is also something to consider, just how much gravity is needed to tightly focus light (real gravitic lensing doesn't work the way optical lenses do).

Does that mean that the pressure within My coke bottle isn't real pressure simply because it was artificially created? Or the air pressure in the tires on My car?

 

[Endie]

Only the Traveller forums would have a heated debate about the feasibility of extending the range of existing lasers while accepting happily that they’re being fired from platforms with artificial gravity that can accelerate using reactionless motors before jumping light years in a week on a perfectly flat map with all planetary bodies exact multiples of one parsec apart.

 

[Condottiere]

I don't know about damage, but if you can see the beam from that distance, and use it to send information, it's the interstellar telegraph.

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

In this case though the stagecoach out runs the telegraph.

 

[tytalan]

All gravitics is magi tech. There is no debate about this really. How is artificial gravity produced by the grav plates? How do acceleration compensators work etc.

The problem about claiming it’s purely magi tech is that we really don’t know why the presence of energy and mass warps spacetime. We can observe it happening and measure it but that’s all effect not cause. Now we have theories about the cause but even physicists can’t agree on them. Calling it Magi Tech suggests that there is no way for us to create or control the underlying cause which is not something that has been proven.

 

[Condottiere]

If the principles are understood, for the foundation of the technology.

If not, it could be a magic wand firing fireballs.

 

[Sigtrygg]

The problem about claiming it’s purely magi tech is that we really don’t know why the presence of energy and mass warps spacetime.

But we know that it does. Experiments have shown the theories to stand up to scrutiny.
While we have no idea whatsoever how gravitics function.

We can observe it happening and measure it but that’s all effect not cause.

You can say the same for electricity, or just about any technology of your choosing.

Now we have theories about the cause but even physicists can’t agree on them.

Not true. We do know the cause. Energy, mass, pressure call it what you will bends spacetime. The equations explain it. it is a pop sci meme that we don't know what gravity is. We have equations to model it and equations to explain it and they have so far past every experiment.

Calling it Magi Tech suggests that there is no way for us to create or control the underlying cause which is not something that has been proven.

What is artificial gravity in Traveller? it doesn't have the porperties of "real" gravity. How do we handwave an explanation for something that has never even been described in any detail. It is magitech, as are damper technology and jump drive.

 

[J. L. Brown]

What is artificial gravity in Traveller? it doesn't have the porperties of "real" gravity. How do we handwave an explanation for something that has never even been described in any detail. It is magitech, as are damper technology and jump drive.

This.

A ship cannot Jump until it is 100 Diameters away from a massive body -- sometimes even including asteroids and other ships. Yet there is never any mention of the 'Artificial Gravity' (nor any of the hand-wavy 'Inertial Compensation', nor the now-gravity-based Maneuver drive) the ship itself is generating causing a problem.

 

[Terry Mixon]

This.

A ship cannot Jump until it is 100 Diameters away from a massive body -- sometimes even including asteroids and other ships. Yet there is never any mention of the 'Artificial Gravity' (nor any of the hand-wavy 'Inertial Compensation', nor the now-gravity-based Maneuver drive) the ship itself is generating causing a problem.

It can't jump without risk of a misjump, anyway.

 

[Sigtrygg]

This.

A ship cannot Jump until it is 100 Diameters away from a massive body -- sometimes even including asteroids and other ships. Yet there is never any mention of the 'Artificial Gravity' (nor any of the hand-wavy 'Inertial Compensation', nor the now-gravity-based Maneuver drive) the ship itself is generating causing a problem.

I was thinking about that the other day. A ship has a magical internal artificial gravity field, a magical inertial damper, and now its very maneuver drive uses gravitivs principles - whatever they are. And yet they don't affect a ships ability to jump...

isn't there a MgT reference somewhere to an artificial gravity generator dragging ships out of jump in a shameless rip off from Larry Niven... or am I misremembering?

 

[Sigtrygg]

It can't jump without risk of a misjump, anyway.

How does a ship get 100D away from its own artificial gravity?

 

[Fluffy Bunny Feet]

How does a ship get 100D away from its own artificial gravity?

Turn it off for the millisecond needed to jump.

 

[Terry Mixon]

Turn it off for the millisecond needed to jump.

This.