2e ACTA: Triple / Quad Damage; fleet carrier combining

[Fin-man]

We were playing our first game of 2e this evening, and came up with two questions:

1) The entry for the 'Double Damage' trait indicates that it will, "...literally double all damage to a target, including the bonus damage caused by critical hits." However, the 'Triple Damage' and 'Quad Damage' traits make no mention of the bonus damage from critical hits. Common sense indicates that critical effects from TD and QD are tripled / quadrupled as appropriate, but the rules don't include the bonus critical damage. Is this an intentional oversight to avoid wholesale death and destruction by the ISA fleet, or just an inadvertent omission?

2) Fleet carrier - the trait indicates that there are modifiers to the roll to recover destroyed fighters. The trait states, "If any an enemy ship (not fighter flight) was within 4" of the counter when it was removed or if it was removed during a dogfight, apply a -1 penalty to this dice roll, these penalties are cumulative." (Emphasis mine.)

If a flight is destroyed in a dogfight, while being within 4" of an enemy ship, is that -2 or -1 to the roll? The rules are unclear as to the 'or' conjunction, followed by the cumulative statement in the same sentence...

Fin-man

 

[Sulfurdown]

Also, why make the distinction of a Capital ship versus a fighter if the fighters have been moved to Ship status for 2E, why not simply state that if there is an enemy ship withing 4" the roll is at a -1. That would offset the +1 from being in range of the Flt Carrier and leave it at an even bonus/penalty possibility?

 

[Either/Or]

we had the same question about double/tripple damage and criticals...any ideas? how was this handled in 1st edition?

 

[Silvereye]

All Damage and Crew loss (including extra from the Critical Hit tables) caused by Double, Triple and Quad Damage is multiplied by 2, 3 and 4 respectively.

Also, why make the distinction of a Capital ship versus a fighter if the fighters have been moved to Ship status for 2E, why not simply state that if there is an enemy ship withing 4" the roll is at a -1. That would offset the +1 from being in range of the Flt Carrier and leave it at an even bonus/penalty possibility?

The Fleet Carrier rules say that all +s and -s are cumulative:
Being within 4" of an enemy ship; -1
Losing the fighter in a Dogfight; -1
Being within 10" of the Fleet Carrier; +1

So if you loose a dogfight while within 4" of an enemy ship your Fleet Carrier roll will be at -2.

 

[Sulfurdown]

Is this a case where fighters count as ships or not?

 

[Court Jester]

Is this a case where fighters count as ships or not?

"If any an enemy ship (not fighter flight) was within 4" of the counter when it was removed..."

 

[LaranosTZ]

Erm, and in the 2nd ed rule book, fighters are defined as ships.

 

[lastbesthope]

Erm, and in the 2nd ed rule book, fighters are defined as ships.

Not in all cases though, the rules state there are some exceptions, but there is no copllated list of exceptions. I'm still wodering if you can put Admirals in fighters.

LBH

 

[Court Jester]

Erm, and in the 2nd ed rule book, fighters are defined as ships.

Yes I know and in the rulebook (the text I quoted) it states (for the third time in ths thread just in case anyone has not read it yet or hasn't got a rule book...)

"If any an enemy ship (not fighter flight) was within 4" of the counter when it was removed..."

 

[Fin-man]

Silvereye,

The Fleet Carrier rules say that all +s and -s are cumulative:
Being within 4" of an enemy ship; -1
Losing the fighter in a Dogfight; -1
Being within 10" of the Fleet Carrier; +1

So if you loose a dogfight while within 4" of an enemy ship your Fleet Carrier roll will be at -2.

While I agree with you on the fleet carrier, the entire sentence structure is somewhat dodgy and can be open to misinterpretation.

All Damage and Crew loss (including extra from the Critical Hit tables) caused by Double, Triple and Quad Damage is multiplied by 2, 3 and 4 respectively.

Do you have anything in the rulebook to back up your statement? While your supposition is a common sense extrapolation based on the double damage trait, that's not what the rules state.

This is another case of, "well, what they meant was..." in the rulebook, instead of clearly delineating what is and is not a rule. I can convincingly argue the point that the designer's intention was to specifically deny triple / quad damage multipliers from critical hits, as they unbalance the amount of damage received from critical hits and provide an unfair advantage to units so equipped. (After all, they left the critical hits wording out of triple damage and quad damage traits, so their intent was...)

Please note, I'm not picking on you or anyone else on this thread. My personal opinion is that they probably did intend to include TD / Quad critical hit multipliers, but neglected to take the statement from the 'double damage' trait and paste it in the TD / Quad trait entries. But, that's not what they put in the rulebook.

We as players shouldn't have to divine what someone's intentions were when looking at a rule. It's frustrating to have to 'best guess' the rules, instead of having the book clearly indicate what is and what is not applicable for a given rule.

Fin-man

 

[Silvereye]

Do you have anything in the rulebook to back up your statement? While your supposition is a common sense extrapolation based on the double damage trait, that's not what the rules state.

The Special Weapon Section on pages 20 & 21 of the Main Rule Book.

Double Damage: "...will literally double all Damage dealt..."
Triple Damage: "All Damage dealt to a target will be tripled."
Quad Damage: "All Damage dealt to a target will be quadrupled."

Note that most rolls on the Critical Systems also inflict extra Damage (it has its own special column). However the on reading the rules properly, they make no mention of doubling, tripling or quadrupling Crew losses whatsoever.... So I would concur on that half of the argument.

So the question becomes;
Should all Crew losses be multiplied by Double, Triple and Quad damage weapons?

Certainly this was the case under 1e where the Special Weapon (1e page 16) entry read "...will literally double all Damage and Crew loss dealt to a target, including bonus damage caused by Critical Hits."

 

[Court Jester]

I agree that the entries for Triple and Quad Damage are quite clear... They state that "all damage dealt..." and now to me that means well... all damage, which includes critical hits (as crits are resolved during the attack of that weapon system).

Now the funny thing is that I had not noticed that none of the entries for these rules mention additional crew losses.

If we are to play rules as wthe are written Double, Triple and Quad damage do not effect crew...

Nice... :wink:

 

[Fin-man]

Do you have anything in the rulebook to back up your statement? While your supposition is a common sense extrapolation based on the double damage trait, that's not what the rules state.

The Special Weapon Section on pages 20 & 21 of the Main Rule Book.

Double Damage: "...will literally double all Damage dealt..."
Triple Damage: "All Damage dealt to a target will be tripled."
Quad Damage: "All Damage dealt to a target will be quadrupled."

Note that most rolls on the Critical Systems also inflict extra Damage (it has its own special column). However the on reading the rules properly, they make no mention of doubling, tripling or quadrupling Crew losses whatsoever.... So I would concur on that half of the argument.

So the question becomes;
Should all Crew losses be multiplied by Double, Triple and Quad damage weapons?

Certainly this was the case under 1e where the Special Weapon (1e page 16) entry read "...will literally double all Damage and Crew loss dealt to a target, including bonus damage caused by Critical Hits."

Silvereye,
I agree with the principle, but why then does the double damage trait (and only that trait) indicate it will, "...literally double all damage to a target, including the bonus damage caused by critical hits." (Emphasis mine.) I looked in 1E, and found the answer. On P. 10, under Critical Hits it states, "The additional Damage and Crew loss indicated is applied immediately, in addition to the normal Damage and Crew loss the hit inflicted. This extra Damage and Crew loss will be multiplied by Double Damage and Triple Damage weapons as normal (see Special Traits on page 16)."

This statement is nowhere that I can find in 2E. So, now the only question is - was it intentional, or just an oversight? Interesting...

Fin-man

 

[Fin-man]

Now the funny thing is that I had not noticed that none of the entries for these rules mention additional crew losses.

If we are to play rules as wthe are written Double, Triple and Quad damage do not effect crew...

Nice... :wink:

**re-reads rulebook, and blinks twice.**

Nice catch, both to Silvereye and Court Jester. I had never noticed the lack of crew in the descriptions... I am interested to see what the MGP guys come back with in the new thread.

Fin-man

 

[Silvereye]

Yay! Its been answered in this thread here.

 

[WereRogue]

And, for the lazy.

They effect both Crew loss and criticals.

-Ken