2300AD, thoughts and wishes

[Joi Sourcebook]

It's a little more complicated than that. There are a LOT more stars in RECONS and Hipparchos than in the old Gliese 2, and some of the positions have changed (more accurate). Among other issues, Wolf 359 (Nyotekundu) is 7.8 light years away. Using new data means no Arms, which greatly changes everything. No chokepoints, no strategic systems, and a clear run from Cucaracha space to Earth.

It's only complicated if we feel compelled to include the latest and more accurate data.
...
Now we find that we have better data, and feel compelled to use it, but that could potentially break the setting. My position would be to favour preserving the setting, and use the new data only as far as it suits.

My recollection is that the both the reality of the star list and the resultant arms were key to the "feel" of 2300AD when I bought it. With the benefit of two decades of hindsight I would say that the arms are probably more important to 2300AD than the reality of the astrography.

With that in mind I'd suggest that you need a cost benefit analysis - how much time and effort will it cost to "impose" arms on modern star lists so that you can claim the benefit of real data (at least until such time as they issue the next revision). If its going to take a lot of time and effort I would drop it and put the effort in where the benefit would be greater. If its doable by (say) tweeking stutterwarp ranges and changing the stars of a couple of colonies then fine.

 

[Daneel Olivaw]

So, Canada becomes the world-leading nation and Poutine becomes compulsory rations for all? Eh?

Ugh. Poutine is revolting. Especially the real thing (gravy and curds over some sort of doughy dumpling "thing")

Nah, I just have some thoughts over the fate of Canada and it's fractious components in the wake of global disaster. Nothing game-changing.

Maybe Emperor Trudeau had cloned himself prior to his demise, and now lies in wait to take over the galaxy, eh?

[As a Canadian, I'm allowed to make fun of "eh", eh?

 

[Daneel Olivaw]

If computers and drones/robots get much better, it obviates the need for people. This is my biggest problem with Transhuman Space: there isn't much for people to do.

In Asimov's robot novels "Caves of Steel", "The Naked Sun", and "The Robots of Dawn", he calls the first wave of people to emigrate off Earth "The Spacers". They used robots and such so extensively that they wore gloves whenever they were going to touch another person, and after they were established blocked any more people from emigrating off earth.

By the end of the series there was finally a second wave of planets settled called "The Settler" worlds. Because of how the over use of robots by the Spacer worlds they banned the use of robots.

Definately different than Transhuman Space I gather.

Yes, I remember it well.

 

[kermit]

I think adding more hand-waving, ala... "You can't get to this star via stutterwarp because Hawking radiation colliding with sub-space Tachyon flares causes the warp drive to spontaneously break down."...is just a bit too Star Trek techno-babble for me.

Alternate Realities are well known to much of the gamer community and can still, if done properly, be considered hard science fiction. So what if this universe's POD (point of divergence) is several billion years in the past during the formation of the Milky Way Galaxy? Having the Near Star List differ a bit from our current knowledge is not a game killer. It's the same with any future history book or game. It soon becomes dated by current events or technological developments. Tying 2300AD to "the newest data" may make it a bit more realistic now, but it will nothing to prevent the game from being dated again in five years or so, and it will destroy the setting.

Tweek the NSL if you must Colin, but keep the Arms and the feel of the setting. Anything else just won't be 2300AD.

Benjamin

 

[Daneel Olivaw]

It's a little more complicated than that. There are a LOT more stars in RECONS and Hipparchos than in the old Gliese 2, and some of the positions have changed (more accurate). Among other issues, Wolf 359 (Nyotekundu) is 7.8 light years away. Using new data means no Arms, which greatly changes everything. No chokepoints, no strategic systems, and a clear run from Cucaracha space to Earth.

Hi Colin,

I'm very glad to hear that you're working on this. I've trolled around here since MGT came out - big fan - and on the COTI boards as well.

Regarding the Near Star List: I can appreciate your concern about the Arms, but you don't have to dismiss their significance just because more travel routes are added around them. (Given the improvement in our understanding of the stellar neighbourhood since 2000, I suspect that we're still missing MANY systems.)

You could simply indicate that such systems are unexplored, undeveloped, quarantined (Why would all the major starfaring powers quarantine certain worlds? Hmmm...) not worth the effort, already occupied by someone else, or any combination thereof.

 

[Colin]

The Arms could simply represent "tramlines" of habitable systems. Other systems may lack planets, requiring close approach to the star in order to discharge the stutterwarp. Stellar positions can be played with a bit to make the Arms work. Of course, that means that the American Arm is likely no longer closed, but that can be tweaked, too.

 

[Jame Rowe]

The Arms could simply represent "tramlines" of habitable systems. Other systems may lack planets, requiring close approach to the star in order to discharge the stutterwarp. Stellar positions can be played with a bit to make the Arms work. Of course, that means that the American Arm is likely no longer closed, but that can be tweaked, too.

I never liked how the American Arm was made closed. Mayhap it should have been "is not thought to be passable using known stars and current technology." So tweak away.

 

[steffworthington]

Think the old Bayern module...

Did someone say Bayern? Ruffles around for old ship plans...


1) I dont care about the accuracy of the stars... most players arent astronomers and besides, knowing where all the extra-solar planets are puts MORE of a dent in 2300AD if you wanna go down that road.

THE PLAYS THE THING

2) Robots. keep it canon.

3) Everything else. Keep it canon.

4) Twilight War. As Middle Earth never happened... who cares that the Twilight War didnt either? Its an alternate then. A 'What-if?' and therefore in the best traditions of sci-fi. keep it canon.

thats my answer for everything really.. Keep it canon.

2300AD should be updated and not tinkered with. Like T20 did with Traveller. The weapons, ships, etc were the same things but now looked COOL!

Thats all we need.
In my humble yet often stated opinion.

 

[steffworthington]

i hope Mongoose pick up Transhuman Space. Not because I like the game... I dont. Cant stand it. But because Im REALLY worried that after reading these posts 2300AD will end up being TS with the numbers filed off...

The milieu of Blue Planet or Cameron's Avatar are much better that TS. Again, in my opinion.

 

[Colin]

I like TS well enough, as a thought experiment. As a game, not so much. I have no desire to turn 2300AD into Transhuman Space + stardrives (though that would be kinda cool...). MgT 2300AD will be 2300AD, just exploring a few areas that went unexplored originally, polished up a bit, dusted off, and allowed to shine once more.

 

[Daneel Olivaw]

The Arms could simply represent "tramlines" of habitable systems. Other systems may lack planets, requiring close approach to the star in order to discharge the stutterwarp.

I think as many stars as reasonably possible should have planets - not necessarily habitable, but terraformable or otherwise interesting to various parties. This will maximize adventuring possibilities in the game.

Stellar positions can be played with a bit to make the Arms work. Of course, that means that the American Arm is likely no longer closed, but that can be tweaked, too.

I never liked how the American Arm was made closed. Mayhap it should have been "is not thought to be passable using known stars and current technology." So tweak away.

I agree that closing the American arm is limiting. I know that part of what distinguished 2300 was the somewhat Eurocentric focus of its background (or at least the move away from America as the default center of everything). However, there's something to be said for a thriving new American frontier, which many players all over the world may want to include in their games, without having to fudge the history and the layout of the Arms to do it.

BTW I'm Canadian.

 

[steffworthington]

I'm in favour of keeping the worlds as they are with the addition of maps and the previous excellent suggestion of views such as a skyline.

Traveller and all it's incarnations can seem too big at times and there's much to be said for having just a few worlds. Let's be honest, there are enough role playing opportunities just on Earth.

I'm happy for the American Arms to be closed. It restricts the the 'choice' of worlds for the GM (TV analogy: more channels less quality) and, in game, who better to be pushing technology to break the 7.7 limit than America?

You could run a campaign just on getting the survivors of the Ranger module back to Earth with what they know without being killed by the security services from a dozen countries!

 

[Colin]

I think as many stars as reasonably possible should have planets - not necessarily habitable, but terraformable or otherwise interesting to various parties. This will maximize adventuring possibilities in the game.
.

In a way, 2300AD sought to limit adventuring possibilities by only having 33 worlds. Even at that, there is a tremendous amount of ground (so to speak) to go over on those worlds. Though there are only those 33 (or so) worlds, they have a universe of possibilities.

My preference is still to use current, real data, and try to make that fit in some way. Perhaps something to do with discharge points.

 

[GJD]

I think as many stars as reasonably possible should have planets - not necessarily habitable, but terraformable or otherwise interesting to various parties. This will maximize adventuring possibilities in the game.
.

In a way, 2300AD sought to limit adventuring possibilities by only having 33 worlds. Even at that, there is a tremendous amount of ground (so to speak) to go over on those worlds. Though there are only those 33 (or so) worlds, they have a universe of possibilities.

My preference is still to use current, real data, and try to make that fit in some way. Perhaps something to do with discharge points.

Bleah (apparently bleah needs an "a" in it - so says my spell checker, anyway). I'm not keen on new data.

If we have to try and shohorn the updated star list (USL) in, I'd suggest keeping the structure and world details the same as for the original near star list (NSL). That way people can choose to disregard the USL if they choose and keep using the NSL. If the relationships between the worlds and the functional poitions remain the same, then it shouldn't make much difference if their astrographic position is different.

G.

 

[Colin]

Bleah (apparently bleah needs an "a" in it - so says my spell checker, anyway). I'm not keen on new data.

If we have to try and shohorn the updated star list (USL) in, I'd suggest keeping the structure and world details the same as for the original near star list (NSL). That way people can choose to disregard the USL if they choose and keep using the NSL. If the relationships between the worlds and the functional poitions remain the same, then it shouldn't make much difference if their astrographic position is different.

G.

That's the plan, if I can accomplish it. Then again, the IP owner may have other ideas. One way or another...

 

[GJD]

Bleah (apparently bleah needs an "a" in it - so says my spell checker, anyway). I'm not keen on new data.

If we have to try and shohorn the updated star list (USL) in, I'd suggest keeping the structure and world details the same as for the original near star list (NSL). That way people can choose to disregard the USL if they choose and keep using the NSL. If the relationships between the worlds and the functional poitions remain the same, then it shouldn't make much difference if their astrographic position is different.

G.

That's the plan, if I can accomplish it. Then again, the IP owner may have other ideas. One way or another...

Just so I'm clear, my first choice would be to ignore the new data and stay with the NSL, errors and all.

G.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

I think I am leaning the other way.

SO WHAT if the Arms have a few connection points now? Those connecting systems are going to be whimpy red dwarfs or brown dwarfs with probably no planet at all. So you CAN get from the French Arm to the Chinese Arm, but it is such a long journey through crappy systems that it isn't profitable most of the time. Most trade will take the path of least resistance (the Arms).

Some locations are going to HAVE to be moved a bit (Wolf 359 as Colin mentioned) to keep the Arms viable. I don't have a problem with that, but to me, it should be kept to a minimum.

BUT, I am an astronomy nut (I gave Colin the Updated Star List data) and those things are important to me. I will still play the game either way. I DO think that the updated stellar data and known Extrasolar planets should be used whenever possible. But, don't break the setting by tying it to closely to reality (did I just say that????!!!! EDG is turning over in his grave...).

 

[Colin]

One of the reasons I bought 2300AD, way back when, was the realistic star map. Now, though, the data used is 40 years out of date. Given that 2300AD is supposed to be "hard" SF, I want to try and use the latest data. That may not work, for a variety of reasons. I'm a bit of an astronomy geek myself, though.

Any new version of 2300AD can't be (just) about nostalgia for the original. The original still exists, at least in PDF, and you can still get it. Revisiting 2300AD means potentially moving it forward, taking another look at the background, the history, the sociology, the technology and everything else. The aim to to wind up with a new 2300AD that looks substantially like the old one, at least in terms of the end state. How it got there, though, is where the fun begins.

I have no wish to trample over anyone's fond memories. However, things change. If nothing else, market forces are at play here. The world has changed from when 2300AD was first written (and Twilight too, for that matter).

 

[Epicenter]

I think I am leaning the other way.

SO WHAT if the Arms have a few connection points now? Those connecting systems are going to be whimpy red dwarfs or brown dwarfs with probably no planet at all. So you CAN get from the French Arm to the Chinese Arm, but it is such a long journey through crappy systems that it isn't profitable most of the time. Most trade will take the path of least resistance (the Arms).

Trade isn't the issue though. A vital element in Invasion for instance was how chokepoints along the French Arm caused various problems to the Kafers invading down the Arm towards Earth. Similarly, by using Arms, the authors of Invasion were able to play up the terror and panic that would occur in a system when the system right next door was hit by the Kafers and you knew it wouldn't be too long before the Kafers hit you.

If you use updated Star Data, then Triumphant Destiny no longer has to slog through a bunch of "straight shot" systems where humanity knows it has to pass through to get to Earth. "Hidden Bases" like Grosshiddenhafen (groan in sympathy with all you German speakers) and the Kafer hidden base in one of the DM systems would become the norm, rather than the exception. Instead of being the creeping menace coming down the French Arm, Triumphant Destiny would become a lolcat with nukes: "lol hi thar!" when its fleet arrives in the Earth system one day, without very much warning.*

EDIT: All that said, I think some way has to be found to integrate newer stellar data. 2300 is supposed to be a "hard" sci-fi game where it's only "out there" technology is FTL (well, I'm pretty sure plasma guns are impossible too, but let's not go there). Hard sci-fi would suggest not including fairy tale star maps either.

I'll miss the Arms though.



* Though Triumphant Destiny is supposed to be a genius, even amongst humans. Even with the old stellar old data, you'd think TD would have been smart enough to look at a star map and figure out that there using tugs or something it'd be possible to attack possible to attack Earth up from the American Arm - the Kafers had to know where Earth was and the extent of all the Arms from the moment they attacked Arcturus and if not Arcturus, the first time they knocked over a primary school on Aurore.

 

[Colin]

Trade isn't the issue though. A vital element in Invasion for instance was how chokepoints along the French Arm caused various problems to the Kafers invading down the Arm towards Earth. Similarly, by using Arms, the authors of Invasion were able to play up the terror and panic that would occur in a system when the system right next door was hit by the Kafers and you knew it wouldn't be too long before the Kafers hit you.

If you use updated Star Data, then Triumphant Destiny no longer has to slog through a bunch of "straight shot" systems where humanity knows it has to pass through to get to Earth. "Hidden Bases" like Grosshiddenhafen (groan in sympathy with all you German speakers) and the Kafer hidden base in one of the DM systems would become the norm, rather than the exception. Instead of being the creeping menace coming down the French Arm, Triumphant Destiny would become a lolcat with nukes: "lol hi thar!" when its fleet arrives in the Earth system one day, without very much warning.*

That is a problem, all right.

TD may have been a genius, but he wouldn't really have been able to go through the rest of Kafer space to get at the American Arm. Not if wanted to have the glory of leading the Invasion.