2300 Rocinante project

[ottarrus]

In general terms, taking military history and sci-fi future projections into account, lots of people get tripped up by the terms 'corvette', 'frigate', and 'destroyer'. The reason for this is that they naturally get hung up on size of the vessel, where the naval definition depends on the design role the is to play.
Without getting too system specific, these are the role definitions:
- Corvettes are escort specialists. They are fast and have long endurance on station. They are smaller in size, complement, and armament and are often the smallest ship a given navy might flag as a warship. In Traveller OTU terms, the Type T and Gazelle are corvettes.
- Frigates are usually specialists in one type of warfare here on Earth, either AA/M or ASW. They are also escorts, but they tend to focus on their designed threat. A lot of navies feel that for the cost of corvette you can build 80% of a proper destroyer and therefore don't use frigates at all [the USN], while others feel that the lower manning and maintenance costs of a frigate make them more affordable in the long run and therefore use them quite a bit [the RN and German Marine]. The Traveller OTU doesn't define 'frigates' but the Chrysanthemum destroyer escort is good rough fit for the role.
- Destroyers are 'maids of all work' of most navies. They're specialized but their larger hulls allow for a wider range of mission profiles, everything from sensor picket to show-the-flag missions where you don't want to use too heavy a hand.

 

[tytalan]

Yea but that’s not how they are classified in 2300 or even many other Sci-Fi games.
Tons Civilian Designation Naval Term Purpose
1 Drop Pod — Cargo Drops
10 Lifeboat Gig —
30 Boat Light Fighter Aerospace Fighter
50 Lighter Longboat —
70 — Heavy Fighter Gunboat
90 Longboat — —
95 Shuttle — —
100 Courier Corvette —
300 Light Freighter Frigate Light Patrol Vessel
600 Medium Freighter Destroyer Multirole Vessel
900 — Cruiser Heavy Patrol Vessel
2,000 Heavy Freighter Battleship —

Now even historically much of your definitions depend on the time frame and navy

 

[boggo2300]

I don’t know about star cruiser but I do know that there is a major misunderstanding about ‘Missiles ‘ that misunderstanding is that 2300 has missiles it doesn’t! What people are calling missiles are one shot drones and are ran with drone rules not missile rules. It confuses most people. So throw the missile rules out they don’t matter.

It's not a misunderstanding, they were called missiles in T;2300, 2300AD, and Star Cruiser, the fact that they have been renamed is part of what I was asking.

 

[tytalan]

It's not a misunderstanding, they were called missiles in T;2300, 2300AD, and Star Cruiser, the fact that they have been renamed is part of what I was asking.

But are the missiles or drones in those? If I remember correctly T2300 and 2300AD both just called bomb pumped drones missiles, they were not fire and forget systems.

 

[boggo2300]

But are the missiles or drones in those? If I remember correctly T2300 and 2300AD both just called bomb pumped drones missiles, they were not fire and forget systems.

correct, don't think any ship carried ordinance was called a drone, they had missiles, probes and Submunitions (Submunitions were fire and forget, as they were basically direct fire mini missiles)

 

[tytalan]

correct, don't think any ship carried ordinance was called a drone, they had missiles, probes and Submunitions (Submunitions were fire and forget, as they were basically direct fire mini missiles)

Submunitions were mines you dropped them and they went off when the enemy came close enough I remember that. Not the same thing as missiles and not really fire and forget ( there no tracking ). While Ordinance wasn’t called drone their missiles were controlled by the ship not self guided so yea drones (the term wasn’t as wide used back then).

And even if I’m remembering wrong it doesn’t really matter it’s how thing are now in the game. My point was Bryn use of the missile rules were incorrect since there is nothing in current 2300 that uses those rules

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

It's worth noting that terms like "frigate" have changed general meaning within the lifetime of GDW. If I pick 1st January 1975, the British, US and French navies defined their ships thus:



Cruisers were mostly older WW2 era cruisers, some of which were completed after the war and usually converted to carry missiles (Tiger class, Albany class, Colbert etc.), or the nuclear USS Long Beach or California class.

The new large missile armed ships received different designations in different navies. In the RN there was debate about whether the County class were cruisers (which they were the physical size of, unarmoured vessels displace less per volume) or not. They were designated destroyers primarily because a cruiser designation would require fitting out for a Commodore etc., and the Counties coexisted with the last Weapon, Battle and Daring class destroyers.

For their own reasons, the USN designated these vessels as frigates, including nuclear powered vessels like Bainbridge and Truxton, but also smaller destroyer leaders like the Mitscher class. In 1975 the frigate classification was discontinued and the large frigates redesignated cruisers and the smaller ones (including the conceptual Ticonderoga class) as destroyers. The goalposts were moved again to bump up cruiser numbers by redesignating the Ticonderoga's as CG's.

The RN created the frigate concept to attack the new high-performance submarines, and the earliest FF's were converted DD's. They needed high speed (30 kts) and an anti-submarine weapon like Limbo. 2nd Rate frigates were for convoy protection. The USN designated these DD's and DE's respectively.

The French, with no old WW2 cruisers left by 1960 or so, simply designated all fleet surface units capable of fleet speed as frégates, and smaller, slower escorts as avisos.

If the RN had used USN designations then the Tigers (and surviving Towns) would have been cruisers, the County's and Type 82 would have been frigates, the old destroyers (C, Weapon, Battle and Daring classes), 1st rate frigates (types 12, 12I, 12M, 15, 16, 21, 22 and 23) and Type 42 would have been destroyers, and the 2nd rate frigates (types 14, 41, 61 and 81, the latter designed a sloop by the RN) would have been DE's.

If the French system was used, almost all would be frégates...

In 2300, I think all French ships with a proper power plant are frégates of some grade:

Grande frégate* de 1er rang - battleships (Richelieu)
Grande frégate de 2e rang - cruisers (Suffern)
Frégate de 1er rang - USN style frigates (10,000 to Ypres for example, a Kennedy would fit here)
Fregate de 2e rang - destroyers (5,000 tonners like a Kiev, maybe without a fusion reactor)
---
Aviso - conventionally power convoy escort (Aconit etc.)

* Translated into English as a "Big Ship," c.f. the Richelieu writeup in SotFA.

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

-2 at close range no modification at adjacent which I think is kind of the point most drones have to move to adjacent range for attack which is why point defense works.

Still -2 vs a normal weapon. Point defence would never be challenged as the best option is to fire at close range, beyond the range of point-defences.

Most definitely yes if Marc could change things for Traveller as well as others who worked with him back in the day than the current owners can also. That’s what it means to own a IP. And even if you want to call it an alternate universe (more of a soy soft for hardcore GDW 2300 fans in my opinion) it is the one that we are concerned with.

Indeed, they tried to change the universe with Megatraveller and TNE. How did that go? Are Mongoose publishing Megatraveller and TNE, or Classic Traveller?

The problem is that changes are simply not accepted by much of the fan base, especially if they are poorly thought out and incoherent. GDW produced a solid system and a solid background, with a few issues some of which were corrected in later products (like dumping the Tirane writeup) and some pose serious problems (the stutterwarp discharge redefinition). The Mongoose version is ignoring the defined universe and becoming incoherent. Some of the changes (like the redefined stutterwarp formula) are deadly.

I would argue that a creator taking over existing IP has a social contract with the existing fans to do no harm to the universe...

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

There is a distinction between a T2300 missile and drone. T2300 missiles are nothing like the 50kg standard Traveller magic missile though.

"Launched Ordnance:
There are two types of launched ordnance: missiles and sensor drones Both are launched from a ship and then remotely piloted."

very 1980s, today they would have AI control systems with human oversight...

There was even an article in a Challenge or possibly DGP periodical Anatomy of a missile.

Drones are usually unarmed and are equipped with powerful sensors.

Star Cruiser had "Missile Data Annex" with lots of examples of different missiles (you can use the design sequence to build your own) followed by Sensor Drones and finally Submunition Dispensers. Submunition dispensers are really good because they make your missiles reusable...

I would also add casaba howitzers...

Projectile Weapons - Atomic Rockets

www.projectrho.com

The Anatomy of a Missile article was awful, and was not the system used to generate the missiles in the first place. Mostly missiles can be recreated using the main design sequence with additions (as I wrote about 25 years back). Missiles built with the article are much faster and cheaper than otherwise (see here).

A missile is, in size and cost, equivalent to a SLBM.

 

[tytalan]

Indeed, they tried to change the universe with Megatraveller and TNE. How did that go? Are Mongoose publishing Megatraveller and TNE, or Classic Traveller?

The problem is that changes are simply not accepted by much of the fan base, especially if they are poorly thought out and incoherent. GDW produced a solid system and a solid background, with a few issues some of which were corrected in later products (like dumping the Tirane writeup) and some pose serious problems (the stutterwarp discharge redefinition). The Mongoose version is ignoring the defined universe and becoming incoherent. Some of the changes (like the redefined stutterwarp formula) are deadly.

I would argue that a creator taking over existing IP has a social contract with the existing fans to do no harm to the universe...

This is a false argument both MegaTraveller and TNE were well liked by a large segment of the Audience. In fact they are often in the top 4 of any surveys on the popularity of Traveller Editions. Your complaint is that you don’t like change which a small percentage of gamers don’t but the vast majority do.

The owner of the IP has every right to change it and the fans of the IP shows their opinion with their wallets. As it is now every indication is that the fans are happy with the direction that mongoose has taken the game. The whole ideal of IP ownership is the ability to grow and change that IP that’s its value.

 

[tytalan]

Still -2 vs a normal weapon. Point defence would never be challenged as the best option is to fire at close range, beyond the range of point-defences.

1 bombed pumped drones are in the minority in 2300.
2 as drones it’s not that simple the controller can effect things as the pilot.
3 most other drones are using weapons that have a range a adjacent
4 ECM and other factors often make attack with a -2 improbable especially when moving to adjacent you actually get a +4 (lose the -2 for close and the +2 for adjacent)
5 point defense in 2300 works entirely different than from HG, you have to roll a to hit and you have to do enough damage since drones have structure.
6 most drone have to use other drones targeting sensors which is another target for PD
7 you can also have PDC drones which means even at your close range you could reasonably be in PDC range.

 

[tytalan]

Indeed, they tried to change the universe with Megatraveller and TNE. How did that go? Are Mongoose publishing Megatraveller and TNE, or Classic Traveller?

Actually none of the above and they have done some massive changes to the IP. They’ve even stated that they are looking at possible jumping ahead in the timeline.

You literally arguing that a person doesn’t have the right to do what they want with their property. Do you think your neighbors should have the right to tell you what color to paint your house? What type of car you’re going to buy? This is your argument.

 

[MasterGwydion]

You literally arguing that a person doesn’t have the right to do what they want with their property. Do you think your neighbors should have the right to tell you what color to paint your house? What type of car you’re going to buy? This is your argument.

I believe they call that a Homeowners' Association, when people who don't own your property can tell you what you are allowed to do with it. lol

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

1 bombed pumped drones are in the minority in 2300.

No, det-laser missiles are the primary weapon of all Terran and Kafer navies.

2 as drones it’s not that simple the controller can effect things as the pilot.

With a range lag. How does the attacking ship aim the weapon? The weapon has no self-targeting systems worth a damn, and needs accurate range, bearing, bearing offset and three dimensional course modelling to affect a hit.

In 2300AD GDW ultimately adopted a house rule limiting the missile control range to 4 hexes. I think that some degree of semi-active homing might work, especially is the crossing rate is close to zero - you have to get the missile head on or straight up the tailpipe. Then the solution is much easier.

3 most other drones are using weapons that have a range a adjacent

Or close. The Ritage and Glowworm have standard lasers.

4 ECM and other factors often make attack with a -2 improbable especially when moving to adjacent you actually get a +4 (lose the -2 for close and the +2 for adjacent)

ECM only effects sensor rolls. It gives a penalty against active, but a bonus against passive detection.

5 point defense in 2300 works entirely different than from HG, you have to roll a to hit and you have to do enough damage since drones have structure.

All missiles have 1 hull point and no armour. They are all disabled with a single hit.

6 most drone have to use other drones targeting sensors which is another target for PD

?

The whole point of using a sensor drone is that it doesn't come under fire, but hangs back as a "spotter."

7 you can also have PDC drones which means even at your close range you could reasonably be in PDC range.

No, because adjacent is 10 km. In the 150,000 km close range bracket, any drones equipped with 10 km range weapons will generally not by in range, will they?

 

[Bryn the 2300AD guy]

You literally arguing that a person doesn’t have the right to do what they want with their property. Do you think your neighbors should have the right to tell you what color to paint your house? What type of car you’re going to buy? This is your argument.

A very libertarian argument, that the owner should be allowed to do whatever they want with their property. Yet, we do regulate things in most of the world. Just because you own a car doesn't mean you can drive it without a licence, and you have to follow the established rules of the road for example.

This is a different case, in that ownership means Mongoose can put out whatever they want, however, but they cannot erase the primary canon. There is a social contract between them and the fans. Colin has declared that his universe is not the prime universe. Cool, but that simply means he is writing an alternative, non-canonical variant setting.

 

[Sigtrygg]

How Mongoose should do the next version of T2300...

Cut n paste the MgT task system into T2300

use Star Cruiser as the basis for ship construction and ship combat

cut n paste anything from 2300AD that doesn't contradict T2300

 

[boggo2300]

How Mongoose should do the next version of T2300...

Cut n paste the MgT task system into T2300

use Star Cruiser as the basis for ship construction and ship combat

cut n paste anything from 2300AD that doesn't contradict T2300

except not T2300, thats the original very buggy GDW game.... I think they actually should actually cut and paster Mgt2 task system into 2300 honestly! and forget what they currently have, it sounds pretty wonky

 

[ottarrus]

@Bryn the 2300AD guy @tytalan
All the definitions you present illustrates my point that ship type is defined not only by size and armament but also by size of navy and intended role.
Nowadays most of Europe's fleets are designed to work with a USN /NATO task force, often with the US providing the 'big ship' core... carrier battle groups or cruiser-led task groups. Yes, the UK has gotten back into the power projection business with the QE class of pocket carriers, but the entire RN budget wouldn't pay for keeping two Nimitz class carriers and their supports at sea. The French Navy has teeth with the Charles de Gaulle but she was a major headache to produce [she took 11 years from keel to acceptance] and she's 30 years old... midlife refit and planned successor time.

In a 2300 sense we have several 'facts of life'...
- The ship killer is the missile drone. Every nation has a type but the current standard is the Ritage II and SIM-14. Most naval vessels can either carry these or can be adapted to do so.
- Ships are not limited by the speed of their stutterwarp drives, they're limited by the discharge time for those drives. The average discharge time for a task force is as big a strategic factor as how much fuel the group is carrying. This should be clearly listed on the ship sheet.
- Fuel, supplies, and gravity are also major factors in a ship's on station endurance. A ship without gravity loses a large percentage of its efficiency if it's crew spends half their awake time on treadmills trying to keep their bone density from turning geriatric. Therefore, ships without a gravity have much less on-station time than those with gravity.

I therefore suggest that the definition of 'frigate' might be a ship on the smaller tonnage range that has a smaller missile complement and no gravity. A 'destroyer' would then be a ship upper half of the patrol ship tonnage range with a larger missile complement and with gravity. And, of course, most major combatants have large missile magazines and have gravity so the definitions there would be hull size.

 

[Sigtrygg]

except not T2300, thats the original very buggy GDW game.... I think they actually should actually cut and paster Mgt2 task system into 2300 honestly! and forget what they currently have, it sounds pretty wonky

What is buggy about T2300 once the task system has been replaced?
2300AD has some serious issues thanks to changes made from T2300

 

[tytalan]

No, det-laser missiles are the primary weapon of all Terran and Kafer navies.

Not according to Mongoose 2300 which is what we are talking about.

With a range lag. How does the attacking ship aim the weapon? The weapon has no self-targeting systems worth a damn, and needs accurate range, bearing, bearing offset and three dimensional course modelling to affect a hit.

In 2300AD GDW ultimately adopted a house rule limiting the missile control range to 4 hexes. I think that some degree of semi-active homing might work, especially is the crossing rate is close to zero - you have to get the missile head on or straight up the tailpipe. Then the solution is much easier.

Again get back on topic we are not talking about previous edition we are talking about mongoose 2300 which specifically states that these drone are remotely controlled. And it’s a game not a science paper.

ECM only effects sensor rolls. It gives a penalty against active, but a bonus against passive detection.

Read the ECM rule vs Remotely controlled vehicles.

No, because adjacent is 10 km. In the 150,000 km close range bracket, any drones equipped with 10 km range weapons will generally not by in range, will they?

Read page 135 AEH PDF drones are a thing.