[2300 AD] North America

[GJD]

Hmmm well I think England or the English might not agree with you there on that point about France and her "importance" in the world currently or the past.

Well, they have been under the rule of a French dynasty for more
than 300 years, with French as the language of nobility and court
and culture, so at least some of them should agree ... :wink:

French the language of nobility and court???

Not for 200 years it hasn't been. The Franco-British relationship is a complicated one, but we have been firmly out from under Frances thumb for a very, very long time, as our regular and repeated wars with them show.

The British Empire - on which the sun never set - was the largest empire of all time. 1/4 of the globe was under British dominion. At the height of it's power the Empire boasted that they could fight and beat the next two largest national navies at the same time. Like House Artedies, they ruled by sea power France didn't come close.

The dominance of France in 2300AD was based on the dubious theory that France's exit from NATO would keep them out of the Twilight war, leaving their infrastructure intact to pick up first after WW3. Coupled with their remaining global colonies - also neutral in the war - they had a head start on the other 1st world countries.

G.

 

[2330ADUSA1]

Well honestly I believe that the UK, Canada, and Australia would side with America. Also I feel that both Germany and Japan would also side with America as well too.

Penn

 

[rust]

Also I feel that both Germany and Japan would also side with America as well too.

Under today's conditions, in any serious conflict Germany would
almost certainly attempt to remain neutral. If this would be im-
possible, Germany would most probably side with its closest ally,
France. This would also make sense because the forces of France
and Germany are already partially integrated, as for example in
the Franco-German rapid reaction brigade of the Eurocorps:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Franco-German_Brigade

or in the French-German EU battlegroup.

 

[Lemnoc]

For gaming purposes, I think the issue is less whether or not the world order alliances 200 years hence would look a lot like the current world order alliances, than whether the in-game world makes sense from an in-game perspective. I think it mostly does (and well done for that! )

My biggest quibble would be whether all this nationalism and tribalism would be transferrable and durable to the interstellar colonies. It strikes me the colonists on Aurore have a lot more in common, and a lot more issues to resolve among one another, than goose-stepping around in the motherland’s picklehaube or shouting “liberté, égalité, fraternité” on Bastille Day. Remote societies take on their unique flavors and interests rather quickly.

One area for speculation BTW would be whether the world powers would perceive the Kaefers as a universal, existential genocidal threat requiring some cooperation and lay aside of grievances, or would chuckle that it’s a Franco-Germanic problem and enjoy watching the tear down.

 

[rust]

My biggest quibble would be whether all this nationalism and tribalism would be transferrable and durable to the interstellar colonies.

In my view, almost certainly not. The colonists of different nations
on the same planet would have more common interests across the
nationalities than they would have with their national governments
back on Earth.

 

[rust]

... than goose-stepping around in the motherland’s picklehaube ...

Please, goose step and pickelhaube were Prussian, not German.
The non-Prussian majority of Germans, especially in the south,
considered that kind of movement and headdress as rather ri-
diculous, and where I live "Preuße" (= Prussian) is an insult -
we lost a war against the Prussians in 1866, and the relations
have not really improved much since then ... :wink:

 

[Lemnoc]

The non-Prussian majority of Germans, especially in the south,
considered that kind of movement and headdress as rather ridiculous

At this point, I think that opinion may be truly international :wink:

I meant no offense through hyperbole.

 

[Lord High Munchkin]

It strikes me the colonists on Aurore have a lot more in common, and a lot more issues to resolve among one another, than goose-stepping around in the motherland’s picklehaube or shouting “liberté, égalité, fraternité” on Bastille Day. Remote societies take on their unique flavors and interests rather quickly.

I bet they happily will take advantage of any additional bank-holidays from the "homeland" as well as any new local ones.

One area for speculation BTW would be whether the world powers would perceive the Kaefers as a universal, existential genocidal threat requiring some cooperation and lay aside of grievances, or would chuckle that it’s a Franco-Germanic problem and enjoy watching the tear down.

Initially it would be a widespread news item (for a day or so, journalists typically have low-attention thresholds), but if there is any gap in action, or lack of any discernible universal threat, focus would wander.

 

[Lysander]

In my 2300 universe, I don't quibble too much about the current alignments in North America -its old news and too stifling. Living on Earth would be like a cyberpunk version of going through the TSA line of an airport every second of the day. I'll pass.

I am more interested in the colonies - that's where all the fun is. In my game, at Broward, the Americans are building a massive space station per the British intelligence report below that I will pass out to my players:

"Broward – Despite the cost of the war, the American government has just completed its massive new “Babylon” station. The Americans, whose penchant for naming things after ancient entertainment series is well-known, are threatening to name it “Babylon 5”. I guess if you don’t have any real epic legends you just make them up…..how American."

"Nonetheless, since all trade coming up, down and between the Chinese and American arms must come through Broward, America’s gamble to corner commerce has a very good chance of succeeding. It will certainly help having the largest human space habitat ever constructed to make both arms self-contained. The only irony is that given the dead-end of the American Arm and the poverty of the Chinese Arm, it is unclear whether that commerce is worth cornering. Not sure I can see it, but time will tell."

Gives me a great excuse to use the cool B5 maps/plans from Mongoose. Also appeals to my somewhat jingoistic belief that Americans will still take an optimistic gamble - particularly in the name of commerce.

That said, with resources being pulled to the French Arm to address the Ka(e)fers, I can see the Chinese Arm (particularly) becoming the wild west with privateers (PCs) having all sorts of fun opportunities to either be pirates or hired law enforcers - with Babylon station being the place where all these deals are put together. Honestly, during wartime, I think the Chinese and American Arms are where all the fun can be for player characters.

 

[Captain Jonah]

Well with the Chinese and American arms being the frontier lots of Player style adventure can be had.

Still with the threat and danger of a war zone down the French arm and all the new stuff being down the CHI/AM arms investments and resources will be flowing to exploit the safer areas.

Frontiers have a habit of becoming civilised over time, those wild colonies where the criminal scum (PCs) hang out become respectable, the Law moves in, the citizens get all law abiding etc etc. So controlling the entire flow of traffic and trade between the CHI/AM arms and Earth puts you in a very good position (read RICH) for the future.

Anyway who says the arms are dead ends. Space is chock full of stuff. It only takes a 0.1G field to discharge a stutter warp if I remember correctly which means all it takes is a rogue world or big enough brown dwarf to be found in the right place and people can be jumping over the void and suddenly those arms are growing again.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

The original 2300AD book had a pretty good discussion about "colonial Nationhood". It said that there was a rift developing on many of the older colonies with their founding nation. The colonists had more in common with the other colonies on their world than they did with their founding nation. So on a colony world, you might have traditional enemies on Earth working together and you might also have traditional friends on Earth fighting (or at least being rivals) on a colony world.

I could see a colony in the french arm where a French and an English colony could be fighting a cold war over some local resource.

Another colony might have Mexican and USA colonies working together dispite the fact that their Earth nations are bitter rivals/enemies.

The background and the descriptions of the various colonies are only a one page (at most) description of the world. The DETAILS of the relationships between the colonies is left to the Referee.

 

[Rikki Tikki Traveller]

(snip)

Anyway who says the arms are dead ends. Space is chock full of stuff. It only takes a 0.1G field to discharge a stutter warp if I remember correctly which means all it takes is a rogue world or big enough brown dwarf to be found in the right place and people can be jumping over the void and suddenly those arms are growing again.

Absolutely correct. The Near Star List is based on (flawed) 1980s data. Even with modern astronomy, we can't really identify a Red Dwarf (class M) star much past 25 light years. We can't identify a Brown Dwarf much past a dozen light years. The outer reaches of the 50-lightyear map are full of unidentified stars. It makes NO SENSE for any of the arms to be closed completely.

 

[Lysander]

Anyway who says the arms are dead ends. Space is chock full of stuff. It only takes a 0.1G field to discharge a stutter warp if I remember correctly which means all it takes is a rogue world or big enough brown dwarf to be found in the right place and people can be jumping over the void and suddenly those arms are growing again.

Actually my intent is to open up the Beta Aquilae Cluster (that Colin introduced in 2320) earlier via the American Arm. Should provide some great fun....and mystery.

I like universes with some underlying ancient threat/mystery/enigma. B5 had the Shadows. I actually like the idea of the Omega Clouds from the McDevitt novels-and plan to use some variant of those.

 

[Lemnoc]

I was trying to explain the very peculiar and complex geopolitical situation with Texas in 2300. One of my players exclaimed, “You mean it’s like Taiwan!”

And suddenly I realized IMT2300U the parallel was exact.

You have the smaller republic declaring its independence while the much larger mother country refuses to recognize or acknowledge the nationhood. Geopolitical forces rally around the independence of the smaller republic because to do so denies territory and power to the larger nation. But just as 20th Century China refused to acknowledge Taiwan as independent and made noises about reacquiring it, so too does 24th Century America continue to claim all of its lost territories.

Bottom line, I just can’t see America ever fully giving up on reclaiming the lands of its “manifest destiny” and will continue to bang the drum, even if it is just rhetoric thundered in the capital dome. This is why I said earlier I consider 2300 America somewhat delusional.

I imagine what transpired is, just as the Allies were too exhausted by war to reclaim lands absorbed into the Soviet sphere in 1944, America was just too spent by Twilight to make much of an issue of reacquiring the West. Many other things to focus on and rebuild, including the Arm. But that doesn’t stop them from making the claim. And, y'know, running for President on it.

Texas and America, being children of a common mother, continue to have congenial relations on the surface. They speak the Anglo-lingua, so to speak. Like the two Chinas, they’ve got relatives on both sides of the divide.

Texas, knowing where its fortunes lie, also continues to nurture productive relationships with Mexico, France, and other world powers. Those nations, whether seeking to constrain the American sphere or because—dadburn it—they just like Texans, serve as a deterrent to America doing much more than grumble and thunder at the outrage of it all.

Eastern Seaboard America, meanwhile, thinks Texas and the rest of its lost Western states deserve LIBERTY plus a good spanking like all naughty runaway children, followed by a strong and tearful bro hug afterward to welcome ’em back in the family. After they pays their back taxes, of course On Tirane and out on the Arms, none of this really makes much difference and nobody much cares; but a good portion of Texan covert ops involves stiff-arming covert American re-acquisitiveness.

But... Taiwan 2000. That bundles it all up into a very simple thought experiment. YTUMMV.

 

[rust]

But... Taiwan 2000. That bundles it all up into a very simple thought experiment.

This situation could make the job of a Texan diplomat rather
... interesting. :twisted:

First, many nations will be tempted to put political pressure
on Texas by threatening to acknowledge America's rule over
Texas whenever they want something from Texas which the
Texans are unwilling to do or give, or whenever they want to
improve their relations with America at the cost of their rela-
tions with Texas for whatever reason.

Second, and worse, some nations may prefer better relations
with America to any official relations with Texas, turning the
"Taiwan" situation into a "North Cyprus" one, with Texas trea-
ted as non-existent by them: Texan identity papers are not
accepted, Texan aircraft and spacecraft are not allowed to
operate within the jurisdiction, Texan companies are not per-
mitted to do business, and so on - "get proper American pa-
pers or bugger off".
Of course, America might be all too willing to provide Texans
with American papers (just as Cyprus does for the citizens of
North Cyprus), but these papers may have strings attached,
and the government of Texas may react unfriendly to citizens
with this kind of "double citizenship".

 

[Lemnoc]

But... Taiwan 2000. That bundles it all up into a very simple thought experiment.

This situation could make the job of a Texan diplomat rather
... interesting. :twisted:

etc.

This looks like a fulltime job for the Texas Rangers Covert Ops Division! :twisted: