Your Evo experience

[Galatea]

Here is some experience I made testing the Evo cards (Bugs & MI only).


Warrior Bug Command rules
I really like them. They make your bugs more flexible and the feeling is much better. It just feels right to move them that way.
The only thing you have to watch is which bug has already been moved and which not (can get a bit complicated).


Terrian Rules:
Where are the great terrain rules of SST? I know the basic rules are just for BF Evo where terrain may be a bit other than in SST Evo, but I hope the old rules will come back for SST Evo.

It's just frustrating to have your Warriors slowed down by any 0.3" high rock field. Also it appears wrong to me that a massive Tanker can't batter it's way through a 3" high forest piece.

I loved the old terrain rules - they where the best terrain rules I've ever read making it possible for really big models just to walk through most things as if they were not there. I can't imagine a Tanker getting slowed down by just some small 3" trees in his way.


Cover rules
The new cover rules are a real problem, as their effect is just to strong. I suggest reducing cover bonus to +1hit and +1kill. The +1kill improvement over obscurement should be worth that.
The Problem with the actual (+2 Target/Kill) is that it makes moving for harder models completely uninteresting.
Exos do not have ANY reason to move if placed in appropriate terrain.

Weapons which are able to kill them in cover (like plasma discharges or nukes) will kill them anyway, and any other thing is simply gunned down (or blasted with orbital bombardment).
In addition you can't jump out of terrain, what makes moving even more uninteresting.
Even a Javelin is nigh useless against Exos in cover.
AND you can shoot at any charging models before attack dice are rolled - try this with 3 Exos in cover - no Warrior Bug will ever reach them.
Even hovering hoppers will get problems - the Kill Value of those Exos is just to high.

The only way to counter this tactic is using the old tunneling rules - then your enemy is forced to move, if does not want to get breakfast to some hungry bugs.


Tanker Spit
The new Tanker Spit is a big pile of crap. I have tried to fry down a PAMI NCO and a Trooper and wasn't able to get them in two turns.
Even against LAMI CloseCombat is more effective as your Kills are almost guaranted (you probably won't burn down more troopers than you can tear appart).
It gets even worse (much worse) if they are in cover.
Exos in cover are almost invulnerable to a Tanker Spit.
I also miss the 'flame' trait - the spit can't even ignore dodge saves (making PAMI Officers with Jumpball Player nigh invulnerable).

If the rules for the Thorny Tanker stay I can't see any reason to field a normal Tanker - you want to charge your enemy anyway.


The Cards
There are some problems with the cards. Either move the weapon stats to the appropriate text block or get back the traits (or do both, what would be the best solution).
It's just unnerving to read your weapon stats and then searching the text. When you then have read the text you already forgot your weapon stats.
The current solution thus doesn't make any sense.


Nametags on the cards
Another thing are the nametags of the textblocks.
If a model is immune to supression then choose ONE nametag and use it at any model that is immune to supression.

On the Exo card suppression immunity is part of the 'though' rule and on the Tanker card it's part of the 'Lumbering' rule.
That doesn't make any sense.
If you want a consistent way I suggest you giving the Exo 'tough/2' and the Tanker 'tough/6'. Then you have one rule (the 'tough' rule) for being immune to suppression (a SICON Agent the would get tough/1) and you can instantly see how many hits the model has.

And - even better - return to the 'hits' concept. Anyone can instinctively handle hits.
Handling failed armour saves causes:
- Confusion, as players aren't used to do this
- Confusion with any weapons that 'ignore armour saves' (do they kill a hits/8 model instantly?)


Hope this is of some use.
Will do my own cards anyway.

 

[Gauntlet-]

I agree with just about all your points...

my idea for the cover issue is as such-

1st, dont let troops jump from cover zones (i dont think they can anyhow in the new rules right?)

2nd, for most cover it should be +1T/K but this option-

Any troop of Size 1 can take a ready action once moved into cover and
'dig in' you sacrifice an action and gain an additional +1T/K

For getting into that cover and digging in, your great, but it cost you a little something, and more importantly this wouldn't help exos

Exceptions should exist for fortifications.

Try it out if you like it, id like to hear how itd work

 

[cOwgummi]

@Gauntlet

isn't that kinda counterproductive?

that you're not allowed to jump out of cover actually IS one of the thinggs keeping the game static.

And the one ready action more or less doesn't change hat much for the game, don't see why it shouldn't be good for exos to get even more invincible though.

 

[Galatea]

Oh, something I forgot.

Firezones
Please do NOT allow to target terrain point. You can make such a mess with these 'free' firezones (like sniping out MI unit leaders with ease).

 

[Voracioustigger]

Oh, something I forgot.

Firezones
Please do NOT allow to target terrain point. You can make such a mess with these 'free' firezones (like sniping out MI unit leaders with ease).

This is something that I've been thinking about too... although it does do a good job of countering your worries about exos in cover... 2 holepunches from a firezone exactly 6" behind the unit leader should do a good job at finishing off the squad (as they will lose 2 actions from the leader dying)!

As for cover, I sort of like it as it is now. It gives a lot more purpose to cover... I'd definitely like to see more variety in cover (because now a fence is +2/+2 and a bunker is +2/+2... seems odd to me), but I don't think even +3/+3 in some situations would be too overpowered.

 

[cordas]

I don't have a problem with firezone snipping. Just change how you deploy your troops, and remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Yes cover is harsh (at the moment), we don't know what will be added into the advanced rules to change this, and we only have 2 units for each of the 4 races, other units may gain stuff that alters the cover balance. Also stop talking about units we ain't got cards for,i.e. saying hoppers are going to be useless is just bizarre as we don't know how SST Evo hoppers will work.

I think that allowing jumping FROM cover would be good, as it would encourage Exo's to move from it.

Stop whinning about how hard exo's are and take a look at the Forth, the Fenirs has a target of 9 and a kill of 12.......

I agree about the slack naming of rules on cards, this is annoying and could possible get much MUCH worse if care isn't taken over it. Going back to hits to me just makes sense, this can fail x number of armour saves before dying is just counter intuitve.

I would also add any armour mods to the weapon stat to weapon stat line. Or just say see notes or some such statement. Saying the 6 gun on the grizzles is -1 armour could easily be added to the stat line, where as explainf the firestorm needs a full description, so just tell us.

Also we need more units to balance the races, at the moment the Forth are just about unbeatable if you take a Fenirs unless the opponent is MI and has enough points to afford a Pee Wee.

425 for basic LAMI with longbow and Pee Wee, which gives 1 Fenirs and 3 fenos..... Who is going to win that? errr..... Either the Forth need a re-think or we need more units that can fight the forth.

 

[Poko]

425 for basic LAMI with longbow and Pee Wee, which gives 1 Fenirs and 3 fenos..... Who is going to win that? errr..... Either the Forth need a re-think or we need more units that can fight the forth.

if the enemy's stupid enough to keep the Fenos together? lami,in one shot.

but you cold take for that price three LAMI squads with one longbow each and some additional meatshields, and shatter him in well, two turns on a open field-the fenos has T5 and K8, and isn't Tough...

it's all very relative still with two units per side :roll:

 

[tneva82]

AND you can shoot at any charging models before attack dice are rolled - try this with 3 Exos in cover - no Warrior Bug will ever reach them.

Co-ordinate things and yes you will.

So they will shoot at first swarm. Swoosh! Then comes second swarm. Exos used up their one and only reaction so you can charge at will.

 

[The Legend]

I don't have a problem with firezone snipping. Just change how you deploy your troops, and remember what is good for the goose is good for the gander.

Thats using the letter of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules! A unit that pours twelve auto shots into a firezone conveniently behind the unit to take out a heavy trooper or a sergeant while firing past the rest of the unit. Thats not in the spirit of the rules or game.

I think that allowing jumping FROM cover would be good, as it would encourage Exo's to move from it.

Can you spell INVINCIBLE?

I agree about the slack naming of rules on cards, this is annoying and could possible get much MUCH worse if care isn't taken over it. Going back to hits to me just makes sense, this can fail x number of armour saves before dying is just counter intuitve.

Do you mean productive? :wink:

I know I'm having a go at you mate but we didn't have any problems with this on monday and lets face it we didn't forget any of the rules!

My main concern is with the cover and an Exo's apparant invincibility when in cover but I think that was as much a product of us getting an imbalance in our terrain and getting a few vital rules wrong. Anyway Steve proved that Exos can be taken down.

 

[Poko]

Thats using the letter of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules!

:shock: how's that? the rules are very clear in this regard-you can place the FZ anywhere. if you want to snipe,go ahead and snipe,but you can expect the same in return. i see no problem here

 

[Voracioustigger]

Thats using the letter of the rules to defeat the spirit of the rules!

:shock: how's that? the rules are very clear in this regard-you can place the FZ anywhere. if you want to snipe,go ahead and snipe,but you can expect the same in return. i see no problem here

Well, a few things wrong with sniping...

1) It affects different armies differently. Bugs don't really have unit leaders, so picking off a bug in a warrior swarm doesn't affect them as much as say... a 5 man exosuit squad losing their leader making them effectively useless for a turn. The Forth are, of course, somewhere in between.

2) It makes the game more about who can abuse a technicality more than who is the best at what the game should be.

3) Arachnid rules were changed because they could kill unit leaders too easily... so clearly sniping unit leaders with any ranged weapon is not really what Matt had in mind.

 

[MaxSteiner]

But it does seem a valid, if somewhat dirty tactic as outlined by the rules, I'd imagine thats why the V1 firezone had to be centered on a model rather than a point.

 

[Poko]

so clearly sniping unit leaders with any ranged weapon is not really what Matt had in mind.

what can i say...i think it's necesarry to write rules with the worst powergamers in mind.otherwise they will exploit rules. heck, it's sane to exploit rules if they'r there, and not even "semi" but fully legal!

2) It makes the game more about who can abuse a technicality more than who is the best at what the game should be.

both players know of this rule, and if both play "leader-driven" armies like MI and Skinnies,they should take this into consideration. put squadleaders in the middle of the unit, buy biger units if possible, use cover extensively etc.
bugs, which aren't affected by sniping, are also the ones leas able to snipe(with one plasmabug, or two rippler swarms?), and in all other games it's affecting both armies.

 

[Galatea]

AND you can shoot at any charging models before attack dice are rolled - try this with 3 Exos in cover - no Warrior Bug will ever reach them.

Co-ordinate things and yes you will.

So they will shoot at first swarm. Swoosh! Then comes second swarm. Exos used up their one and only reaction so you can charge at will.

First Exo reaction creats a 6" fire zone (hitting the second swarm, too).
There will not be any second swarm in range after that shooting.

 

[cordas]

The rules quite clearly state that you can place the fire zone ANYwhere you want it. I would say that is rather explicit. If 1 player wants to limit the number of potentail kills that they can get by trying to snipe off the leader then that is up to them.

Yes I can see where and when this will be cheesy, and will be subject to abuse, especaily if you have very small amounts of fire power to contribute. An unscrupulous person could always place the FZ so the closest model is always the unit commander, just show me where it says you can't in the rules.....

To be honest I don't where I stand on this issue, afterall we are WARgaming, and wars ain't nice it has always been an objective in war to try and take troops out of command, and its as valid a tactic irl as in gaming. On the other hand it will make for a very acrimonius game where the 1st unit to fire will always try to take whatever squad they shoot at out of command or pick off the heavy / special weapon, and tit for tat will ensue, making cover ever more important. I would rather have fun gaming than not.

cordas wrote:
I think that allowing jumping FROM cover would be good, as it would encourage Exo's to move from it

.


Can you spell INVINCIBLE?

On a good day yes. Now can you read Stu I said jumping FROM cover not into cover, being able to jump out of cover will make it MORE likely that a player would consider this not less likely, yes you could argue it may make them more likely to deploy in cover, but as there is nothing to stop them doing this in the 1st place, so whats been lost?

With 2 actions you can generaly walk out and get 1 round of shooting, or you could jump/fire further and move a lot further, hence you are far more likely to do it. The only times I can see you being unable to walk out and shoot will be from deployment (otherwise they will have to spend 2 or more actions walking that far into the woods) and it will generaly just be a turn passing phase.

If you wanted to limit this to reduce mobility you just make jumping out of terrain the same as walking through it, it halves the potentail movement, but with the alteration that your full jump distance is halved, not just the distance in cover so a 12inch jump becomes 6inches max and you must end the jump out of cover. The fluff is simple, its the difficulty of making a safe jump that makes it difficult, not the distance covered.

 

[cordas]

taken from the BF Evo forum[/i]"]The rules also state that everyone who is firing has to have Line of Sight to the center of the Fire Zone, though, not just the models to be hit.

So, if the enemy has set up a line of infantry standing shoulder to shoulder, in front of their machine guns, can I mow down the line of infantry and still hit the machine gunners with enough hits? Or does the line of infantry block line of sight, such that I need to take a second Shoot action to get the dangerous guys with machine guns? Or (middle ground?) do the guys in back get +1 to their Target value because only parts of them are visible due to "cover"?

And finally, do any of these answers change if the first line of infantry is set up 7" ahead of the second line of machine guns?

Opps a missreading of the rules on our point.......

Maybe this is why you can't snipe, or at least it is very difficult to snipe. If this is correct and it looks that way to me, do the troops behind get blocked LOS or obscured. (classing your troops in front as cover just seems wrong on so many levels lets not consider it.)

 

[Soulmage]

(classing your troops in front as cover just seems wrong on so many levels lets not consider it.)

Obviously you never played 3rd edition WH40k! :roll:

 

[cordas]

(classing your troops in front as cover just seems wrong on so many levels lets not consider it.)

Obviously you never played 3rd edition WH40k! :roll:

As I said classing your troops in front as cover just seems wrong on so many levels lets not consider it. :evil:

 

[Turtle]

Galatea, it's called flanking.

Honestly, the point is to defeat the enemy's cover anyway, so that's something the bug player will factor in to his tactics. Your example assumes only warrior bugs or close combat bugs are used, however, Arachnid players know that if they're facing Marauders and Exos, relying too much on warriors reaching their targets above ground is foolish. Instead those exos would be getting hit by plasma, hopper strikes, bug ranged, tunneling units, etc... Not ot mention the still oncoming warrior swarms.

Remember that Exos can't jump into cover, so if they want that reaction before the charge, they'll have to spend an extra action moving into that cover.

Also, the reaction to charges while in cover is still only limited to 1 reaction a turn. So no infinite reactions.

All in all, it just sounds like trying to predict wins before actually fighting the battle, and we all know what happened on Klendathu. There are seriously so many different situations that are close to what you describe, each with different tactical nuances that could go either way. It all comes down to actual tactics on the table, not simply reading things into the rules.

Hopefully I'll have time to play some SSTE this week.

 

[cordas]

if the enemy's stupid enough to keep the Fenos together? lami,in one shot.

but you cold take for that price three LAMI squads with one longbow each and some additional meatshields, and shatter him in well, two turns on a open field-the fenos has T5 and K8, and isn't Tough...

it's all very relative still with two units per side :roll:

Avoiding the madness of clumping against nukes :shock: 8)

I would just keep 1 of the fenos out of LOS as much as possible, and use the fenirs to hunt down the lami squads 1 at a time. They only get 1 shot per turn and can't move if they take it or react, in response it gets its reaction shooting and 1 or 2 shooting actions, the lami need 2 kills (on a 9+ in the open, they can't if its in cover) at least to kill the fenirs.

If you look at the bugs, they have the ability to take down a fenirs but with difficulty, well and the skinnies are in even more trouble, all fenirs needs is obscurement and its safe from anytrhing the skinies can currently feild.

I am not saying the forth are a broken race, just that with the current card releases they are almost un-stoppable. I suppose I just want what we all want........ more card releases (and please in a slightly higher quality so that they can be printed and read without eye strain) :twisted: :lol: