Yet another G'Quon idea

[Tzarevitch]

Another thought which has occurred to me is that e-mines aren't as accurate as other weapons. They're not aimed at a ship, they're aimed at a general piece of space which happens to be near one or more ships. It should not be easy to pick that one magic spot where you'll get two enemy ships that are exactly 6" apart, or put it at exactly the right distance to hit the two enemy fighters next to your ship without hitting your ship at the same time.

Roll 1D: the mine went:
1 - 0.5" too short
2 - 0.5" too far
3 - 0.5" left
4 - 0.5" right
5,6 - right where you aimed it.

This is nothing to do with stealth or dodge, it's because the energy mine is basically an unstable fusion reactor being lobbed out of a tube in the general direction of the enemy and timed to explode about where it will do some harm.

No offence, the problem is that makes no sense. It never did even in B5W. I take a dag'kar and fire my ion torp at a hull 4 vree xeel that is trying not to be hit and have a 5 in 6 chance of hitting it. But if I fire the e-mine targeted on the point in space the ship just passed through I have a 2 in 6 chance of centering it on that point?

Also, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that e-mines are inaccurate. The reality of proximity weapons is exactly the opposite. They are considered more accurate because they don't have to hit the target dead on to do their job. They kill by being close. With regard to the word "unstable," that is a reference to the state of the reactor not how accurate the vehicle carrying the reactor is.

Tzarevitch

 

[Ripple]

I think he was saying that the instability in the reactor might make actually judging when the explosion goes off difficult, but even that would only give you a 'short' or 'long' result.

Ripple

 

[AdrianH]

No offence, the problem is that makes no sense. It never did even in B5W. I take a dag'kar and fire my ion torp at a hull 4 vree xeel that is trying not to be hit and have a 5 in 6 chance of hitting it. But if I fire the e-mine targeted on the point in space the ship just passed through I have a 2 in 6 chance of centering it on that point?

As opposed to now, where you have a 6 in 6 chance of hitting exactly the right point to get the Xeel and the Xorr which is just the other side of the 6" blast diameter, without hitting your own fighters which just moved right next to the Xeel.

Also, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that e-mines are inaccurate. The reality of proximity weapons is exactly the opposite. They are considered more accurate because they don't have to hit the target dead on to do their job. They kill by being close.

There is very little to indicate anything about e-mines - I only recall them being used once, at Gorash 7. They definitely do not look accurate, exploding well ahead of the Shadow ships, which just about get caught by the edge of the blast.

Proximity weapons are not accurate; they are less likely to hit where they are aimed. As you say, their advantage is that they don't need to hit, they just need to get near. Which is fine if you're trying to put it near one target, maybe if you're trying to put it somewhere between two targets which are close together. But it's not good enough if you're trying to put it exactly in the right place to hit an enemy without hitting your own ship which is sitting right next to the enemy. It's like using a shotgun to try to kill an enemy who is holding a hostage; the scatter effect of the shotgun means you'll probably hit the enemy, but you'll probably hit the hostage as well.

 

[inq101]

As opposed to now, where you have a 6 in 6 chance of hitting exactly the right point to get the Xeel and the Xorr which is just the other side of the 6" blast diameter, without hitting your own fighters which just moved right next to the Xeel.

I'd assume this would be done by ordering the fighters to avoid sector x,y,z to clear the blast. Same would be true for bigger ships. It does state in the fluff that e-mines were originally fighters so there's no reason why the mine couldn't retain a guidance system.

My idea for e-mines would be to have them fired at the end of the ship movement phase and explode at the end of the shooting phase. You would be able to neutralise the mine by shooting it down (or intercepting it with fighters) or by destroying the firing ship (removing the target lock).

 

[AdrianH]

As opposed to now, where you have a 6 in 6 chance of hitting exactly the right point to get the Xeel and the Xorr which is just the other side of the 6" blast diameter, without hitting your own fighters which just moved right next to the Xeel.

I'd assume this would be done by ordering the fighters to avoid sector x,y,z to clear the blast. Same would be true for bigger ships. It does state in the fluff that e-mines were originally fighters so there's no reason why the mine couldn't retain a guidance system.

Except that you're not ordering the fighters to avoid that sector, you're ordering them into it, i.e. right next to the enemy ship. And good luck ordering enemy ships into the target area so you can detonate your mine at just the right point to get two or three of them which are right on the edge of the blast zone.

My idea for e-mines would be to have them fired at the end of the ship movement phase and explode at the end of the shooting phase. You would be able to neutralise the mine by shooting it down (or intercepting it with fighters) or by destroying the firing ship (removing the target lock).

Energy mines don't get target locks, which is why they can be launched in the general direction of ships with stealth. And your system has the disadvantage that it no longer affects stealth, since by the time the energy mines explode, everything else which was trying to fire at stealth ships has already done so.

 

[inq101]

Except that you're not ordering the fighters to avoid that sector, you're ordering them into it

You'd be telling the fighters to be at a safe point outside of the planned detonation area, organizing it so that they can make their attack run then reach safety before the mine goes off.

Energy mines don't get target locks

But there could be someone guiding the mine in to the correct position, fire by wire style or with something like a laser target designator.

And your system has the disadvantage that it no longer affects stealth, since by the time the energy mines explode, everything else which was trying to fire at stealth ships has already done so.

IMO this is one of the advantages of the system. The e-mine vs. stealth thing has caused more arguments in my group than any other topic and regularly comes up on the forums

 

[Foxmeister]

IMO this is one of the advantages of the system. The e-mine vs. stealth thing has caused more arguments in my group than any other topic and regularly comes up on the forums

Personally, I don't see this as an advantage at all.

IMHO, the e-mine is the "rock" to Stealth's "scissors", and that's probably fair enough given the nature of the game. It's only a +1 to break Stealth after all, and it is nowhere near as disadvantageous as say Accurate is to Dodge.

The issue is that Accurate is generally less prevalent in the game than weapons with the e-mine trait, and that's because they are being thrown out like knickers at a Take That concert!

Regards,

Dave

 

[inq101]

I think the main problem is that the e-mine seems to be the rock to every defenses scissors.

That and the fact that our groups Minbari player is a whiner :lol:

 

[Da Boss]

I tend to concour that the problem is not neccsarily emines but that it has become so common - if B5 ACTA had continued everyone would have access to emines...........

 

[Foxmeister]

I think the main problem is that the e-mine seems to be the rock to every defenses scissors.

That and the fact that our groups Minbari player is a whiner :lol:

It's not much of a rock though, given it can't crit - unless you're a fighter of course!

Perhaps it would work better if it was just a +1 modifier to Dodge as it is to Stealth? Then again, if that were the case, I don't think they'd be much of a justification for not allowing it to cause crits any more.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Burger]

The triple damage e-mines are quite a rock to Minbari, with their low crippled thresholds. A Tigara only needs 6 hits to be crippled, a Tinashi 9 and a Sharlin 14.

 

[Foxmeister]

The triple damage e-mines are quite a rock to Minbari, with their low crippled thresholds. A Tigara only needs 6 hits to be crippled, a Tinashi 9 and a Sharlin 14.

A single Dag'Kar is going to need 3 turns on average to get 6 e-mine hits on a Tinashi, and even then bulkhead hits will reduce damage. In my experience the Minbari tend to target Dag'Kars very early on in the battle, and they are not often on the table anymore by turn 3!

Regards,

Dave

 

[Da Boss]

The triple damage e-mines are quite a rock to Minbari, with their low crippled thresholds. A Tigara only needs 6 hits to be crippled, a Tinashi 9 and a Sharlin 14.

Although a Sharlin at decent range is often on CBD

 

[Tzarevitch]

I think the main problem is that the e-mine seems to be the rock to every defenses scissors.

That and the fact that our groups Minbari player is a whiner :lol:

Not every defense, not by far. They can't crit so GEGs are nearly max effectiveness against them. The fact they don't crit and fire slowly also makes it hard to knock down shields or get much damage past adaptive armor.

The defenses they are extremely good against are pretty much just dodge and stealth. Interceptors don't work against them but they also don't stop beams which are far more common than e-mines. Size is is the most overlooked defense against e-mines. Since they can't crit they have to go through every hp on the ship without the benefit of a cheap crit kill.

Basically e-mines are at their best against smaller agile ships and stealth vessels and they are poor against larger ships with advanced defense systems (try killing an ancient shadow ship or a vorlon heavy cruiser with e-mines alone).

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

No offence, the problem is that makes no sense. It never did even in B5W. I take a dag'kar and fire my ion torp at a hull 4 vree xeel that is trying not to be hit and have a 5 in 6 chance of hitting it. But if I fire the e-mine targeted on the point in space the ship just passed through I have a 2 in 6 chance of centering it on that point?

As opposed to now, where you have a 6 in 6 chance of hitting exactly the right point to get the Xeel and the Xorr which is just the other side of the 6" blast diameter, without hitting your own fighters which just moved right next to the Xeel.

Also, there is absolutely nothing to indicate that e-mines are inaccurate. The reality of proximity weapons is exactly the opposite. They are considered more accurate because they don't have to hit the target dead on to do their job. They kill by being close.

There is very little to indicate anything about e-mines - I only recall them being used once, at Gorash 7. They definitely do not look accurate, exploding well ahead of the Shadow ships, which just about get caught by the edge of the blast.

Proximity weapons are not accurate; they are less likely to hit where they are aimed. As you say, their advantage is that they don't need to hit, they just need to get near. Which is fine if you're trying to put it near one target, maybe if you're trying to put it somewhere between two targets which are close together. But it's not good enough if you're trying to put it exactly in the right place to hit an enemy without hitting your own ship which is sitting right next to the enemy. It's like using a shotgun to try to kill an enemy who is holding a hostage; the scatter effect of the shotgun means you'll probably hit the enemy, but you'll probably hit the hostage as well.

1) Proximity weapons have been used against fast moving aircraft since WWII precisely because they are MORE likely to hit their target. It is very difficult to hit a high-speed aircraft with a direct kill weapon at any reasonable range. It is substantially easier to hit it with a proximity-kill weapon (although it is still not easy). The difference is in how much damage they do on a hit. A direct kill weapon will tend to completely destroy an aircraft on a hit, a proximity-kill weapon will blow holes in it and force it to crash or withdraw. The ultimate result is the same except the proximity weapon is far more likely to hit its target at all.

2) You don't use proximity weapons if your own assets are in the blast area unless you don't care if they get hit. (Admittedly, the same is true of firing direct-kill weapons near friendly targets ).

Tzarevitch

 

[Tzarevitch]

Except that you're not ordering the fighters to avoid that sector, you're ordering them into it

You'd be telling the fighters to be at a safe point outside of the planned detonation area, organizing it so that they can make their attack run then reach safety before the mine goes off.

Energy mines don't get target locks

But there could be someone guiding the mine in to the correct position, fire by wire style or with something like a laser target designator.

And your system has the disadvantage that it no longer affects stealth, since by the time the energy mines explode, everything else which was trying to fire at stealth ships has already done so.

IMO this is one of the advantages of the system. The e-mine vs. stealth thing has caused more arguments in my group than any other topic and regularly comes up on the forums

Again no offense, but I can't see how it is causing that many arguments except from a Minbari player whining. Who else is running that many stealth ships to care? Truthfully, it is the Drazi who get hurt the most by e-mines since they have small ships and no other real defense except dodge. The ISA is next on the list but at least they have adaptive armor to severely cut the damage.

It takes a lot of e-mine hits to kill bigger Minbari ships and only four Narn ships carry more than one (2 at raid, 1 at war, 1 at armageddon). The Gaim tend to have more of them but they do less damage per mine and still take a long time to kill bigger ships.

Again, no offense to Minbari players who don't complain, but the ones that do need to stop whining that ONE weapon system ignores their defense. Stealth allows them to laugh in the face of the mighty vorlon quad laser yet they howl when an e-mine hits them for 9 points of no-crit damage once. :roll:

Frankly, there is nothing wrong with the e-mine rules as they stand. I have no problem with the fact that fighters tend to die if a high-megaton nuke is detonated within a few miles of them or the fact that that same high-megaton warhead cares not a whit about how well a Minbari ship hides. The problem with e-mines only came when the Gaim suddenly got a boat load of turreted, long-range, low-power mines that allow them to sandblast whole areas of the map. The whole point of giving Narn one-shot e-mines was to prevent just such a thing happending but then the Gaim were given precisely the weapon that the rule change was designed to prevent. The proposed Gaim changes seem to tone this down some but I still wish they had not given e-mines to the Gaim.

Tzarevitch

 

[katadder]

the problem with having a whole fleet having e-mines is the fact that as stated they dont crit, so they have to kill every last single bit of damage on an enemy ship without degrading its performance.

the problem with the Gaim came about from the fact their main weapon was fighters and all the e-mines allowed their fighters to get through unmolested.

the changes to the Gaim rules means they cannot clear fighters quite as effectively, they are limited in numbers of fighters that can attack and their pods have been downgraded.

 

[AdrianH]

1) Proximity weapons have been used against fast moving aircraft since WWII precisely because they are MORE likely to hit their target.

I did not say they are less likely to hit, I said they are less accurate. In fact, I view e-mines as being similar to the artillery in various other games - and in those games, artillery gets to scatter. Aim it at an enemy ship, it won't impact right on the enemy ship but it will be close enough. With a blast radius of 3" and a scatter of 0.5", if you aim at or near the target of your choice, you will hit it. But if you aim at the midpoint between two targets 6" apart, you'll probably get one, maybe get both, maybe get neither.

2) You don't use proximity weapons if your own assets are in the blast area unless you don't care if they get hit. (Admittedly, the same is true of firing direct-kill weapons near friendly targets ).

Precisely what I'm getting at. At the moment you can use an e-mine when your assets are next to the enemy because you place the e-mine so that the enemy is just inside the blast and your assets aren't. I want the e-mine to be slightly inaccurate so that if you try that, you're equally likely to miss entirely or hit your own unit as well as the enemy. As for direct-kill weapons, B5:ACTA doesn't take note of where misses went, but that is why you're not allowed to fire into a dogfight.

 

[H]

1) Proximity weapons have been used against fast moving aircraft since WWII precisely because they are MORE likely to hit their target.

I did not say they are less likely to hit, I said they are less accurate. In fact, I view e-mines as being similar to the artillery in various other games - and in those games, artillery gets to scatter. Aim it at an enemy ship, it won't impact right on the enemy ship but it will be close enough. With a blast radius of 3" and a scatter of 0.5", if you aim at or near the target of your choice, you will hit it. But if you aim at the midpoint between two targets 6" apart, you'll probably get one, maybe get both, maybe get neither.

2) You don't use proximity weapons if your own assets are in the blast area unless you don't care if they get hit. (Admittedly, the same is true of firing direct-kill weapons near friendly targets ).

Precisely what I'm getting at. At the moment you can use an e-mine when your assets are next to the enemy because you place the e-mine so that the enemy is just inside the blast and your assets aren't. I want the e-mine to be slightly inaccurate so that if you try that, you're equally likely to miss entirely or hit your own unit as well as the enemy. As for direct-kill weapons, B5:ACTA doesn't take note of where misses went, but that is why you're not allowed to fire into a dogfight.

ok, I'l bite... .

and advanced alien race, 250 years in the future, and they can't even target accurately?

I can also advise, I killed a Sharlin with e-mines. It took a ka Bin tak and 2 G'Vrahns to do it, but pure e-mine damage, one dead sharlin.

 

[greenboy]

I would like to see two sets of damage for an e mine one for a direct hit then one for the blast radius maby something like AP TD for the hit and just emaine for the blast so the hit cand be dodges avided by stealth but the blast can not.