Yet another G'Quon idea
- Thread starter Da Boss
- Start date
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
If you were to give the Dag'Kar OS energy mines, it would need multiple launchers. Of course, then the common tactic for them would be to unleash everything in turn one, and switch to init-sinking from turn 2 onwards. I think I'd rather stick with the reloading version myself 
With regards to energy mines themselves, I think the heart of the problem is the rule itself. It isn't obvious until you think about it, but the problem that fighters have is that they catch too much of the blast. If you imagine an expanding sphere of energy, a larger ship would be hit by a larger area of the wall, and in game terms should be hit by more AD than a smaller ship. Fighters should still be vulnerable to energy mines, but this should be because their primary defence (dodge) is ignored, not because they're catching just as much of the blast as a space station would.
The hard bit of course would be making a rule that follows this trend but which doesn't need a calculator to work out. It may be worth giving some though towards though.
With regards to energy mines themselves, I think the heart of the problem is the rule itself. It isn't obvious until you think about it, but the problem that fighters have is that they catch too much of the blast. If you imagine an expanding sphere of energy, a larger ship would be hit by a larger area of the wall, and in game terms should be hit by more AD than a smaller ship. Fighters should still be vulnerable to energy mines, but this should be because their primary defence (dodge) is ignored, not because they're catching just as much of the blast as a space station would.
The hard bit of course would be making a rule that follows this trend but which doesn't need a calculator to work out. It may be worth giving some though towards though.
lastbesthope
Mongoose
Foxmeister said:Da Boss said:
Will the Spoons be Twin-Linked and Precise?
Regards,
Dave
More like a salad server.
LBH
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Or, how about - and I know this will be a real stretch for you, Foxmeister et al - not being idiots and grasping the possibility of there being a Narn missile ship that's not an e-mine platform.
I realise it's a challenging concept, but other races have to make do with a ship that just fires missiles, ones that can be dodged, intercepted or spoofed by stealth. Amazingly, the Dag'Kar would have to be re-statted, perhaps stopping it from being the premier anti-fighter and anti-White Star unit in the game.
I hope you were sitting down for that.
I realise it's a challenging concept, but other races have to make do with a ship that just fires missiles, ones that can be dodged, intercepted or spoofed by stealth. Amazingly, the Dag'Kar would have to be re-statted, perhaps stopping it from being the premier anti-fighter and anti-White Star unit in the game.
I hope you were sitting down for that.
hiff did a narn missile cruiser:
G'Quanth class missile cruiser
Following the launch of the G'Vrahn, the most advanced warship to ever come from Narn shipyards, the design bureau began looking at how some of the technology could be adapted to upgrade or replace older designs. Looking to improve cost efficiency, the designers began looking at a replacement for the dag'kar, one of the most expensive ships ever fielded by the regime. The result was the G'quanth. A solid no nonsense ship, the G'Quanth doubled the effective firepower of the Dag'Kar on a much tougher more resiliant hull.
Name: Class/PL: G'Quanth class missile cruiser / Battle
Crew Quality: Troops: 4
Speed: 7 In Service: 2267+
Turns: 1 / 45 Craft: none
Hull: 5
Special Rules: Antifighter 2, jump Engine, Lumbering, Interceptors 2
Damage: 45 / 10
Crew: 60 / 15
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Ion Torpedo 30 F 6 SAP, Precise
Ion Torpedo 30 F 6 SAP, Precise
Advanced E-Mines 45 F 6 AP, TD, Slow Loading
Ion Cannon 8 A 8 Twin Linked
Ion Cannon 8 P 8 Twin Linked
Ion Cannon 8 S 8 Twin Linked
and I know there have been other ion torpedo variants of the dag'kar put forward. comparing the dag'kar to the elutarian is just odd anyway as they are differant ships with differant capabilities and the elutarian would rape a dag'kar so badly the dag'kar would wonder what hit it.
G'Quanth class missile cruiser
Following the launch of the G'Vrahn, the most advanced warship to ever come from Narn shipyards, the design bureau began looking at how some of the technology could be adapted to upgrade or replace older designs. Looking to improve cost efficiency, the designers began looking at a replacement for the dag'kar, one of the most expensive ships ever fielded by the regime. The result was the G'quanth. A solid no nonsense ship, the G'Quanth doubled the effective firepower of the Dag'Kar on a much tougher more resiliant hull.
Name: Class/PL: G'Quanth class missile cruiser / Battle
Crew Quality: Troops: 4
Speed: 7 In Service: 2267+
Turns: 1 / 45 Craft: none
Hull: 5
Special Rules: Antifighter 2, jump Engine, Lumbering, Interceptors 2
Damage: 45 / 10
Crew: 60 / 15
Weapon Range Arc AD Special
Ion Torpedo 30 F 6 SAP, Precise
Ion Torpedo 30 F 6 SAP, Precise
Advanced E-Mines 45 F 6 AP, TD, Slow Loading
Ion Cannon 8 A 8 Twin Linked
Ion Cannon 8 P 8 Twin Linked
Ion Cannon 8 S 8 Twin Linked
and I know there have been other ion torpedo variants of the dag'kar put forward. comparing the dag'kar to the elutarian is just odd anyway as they are differant ships with differant capabilities and the elutarian would rape a dag'kar so badly the dag'kar would wonder what hit it.
Foxmeister
Mongoose
Lord David the Denied said:
If you've a point to make, it's usually worth actually *making it*, or perhaps that's a concept that is too challenging for you?
Perhaps it would've been worthwhile if you'd actually stated that then! We are not all blessed with your *vast* intellect, and cannot always see what is so blindingly obvious to you!
I wasn't aware that you had made any effort to restat the Dag'Kar beyond saying that dropping the SL e-mine would "level the playing field", but I must have missed something!Regards,
Dave
I honestly wouldn't mind the Dag'Kar being a missle frigate but that's right it's is a Dag'Kar Missle frigate not a mine frigate. I've never known why it's stacked with so many mines instead of torps/missles.
The old e-mine is pretty hard to get right.
The no crit's came from being able 6-6 & 6-5 ships in 1st ed which killed ships instantly, the crit chart was the main problem there.
Ignoring dodge came from fighters being so deadly, precise on them all doing 6-6 & 6-5 crits again.
Why don't we scrap O/S , make Only ignore dodge on the centre & -2 to the roll in the radius let them crit but reduce the radius to 2 1/2 or 2 inches. 2 1/2 inches would mean we could use those templates we have from other games. 3 inches is rather huge. The Narn really don't need e-mines anymore as AF defence. They have AF on most ships helps & they do have all round firepower plus the Gorith is half resonable as an escort.
Strip e-mines from nearly all the other fleets. Make the Gaim shoot at people like normal fleets. The Gaim should have the minelaying ability though. There is plenty of weapon traits to give them something different.
The old e-mine is pretty hard to get right.
The no crit's came from being able 6-6 & 6-5 ships in 1st ed which killed ships instantly, the crit chart was the main problem there.
Ignoring dodge came from fighters being so deadly, precise on them all doing 6-6 & 6-5 crits again.
Why don't we scrap O/S , make Only ignore dodge on the centre & -2 to the roll in the radius let them crit but reduce the radius to 2 1/2 or 2 inches. 2 1/2 inches would mean we could use those templates we have from other games. 3 inches is rather huge. The Narn really don't need e-mines anymore as AF defence. They have AF on most ships helps & they do have all round firepower plus the Gorith is half resonable as an escort.
Strip e-mines from nearly all the other fleets. Make the Gaim shoot at people like normal fleets. The Gaim should have the minelaying ability though. There is plenty of weapon traits to give them something different.
Few quick thoughts...
I think Neko up above hit the nail on the head with the issue of blast AD vs fighters. Right now most mines are virtually guaranteed to kill the fighters caught in them. If we only allowed 1 AD vs any fighter under the template, or 2 say, you would see fighters have some chance.
Dodge ships could have dodge reduced by half... so 3+ would go to 5+, 4+ go to 6+, 5+ go to 6+ and 6+ just loses it. Representing that they are smaller ships.
Fixes the biggest issue, the on/off approach to defenses.
Stealth would still just suck, could argue for a stealth check to place the mine right with the ships location being fluffed as only a best guess in any particular moment.
Ripple
I think Neko up above hit the nail on the head with the issue of blast AD vs fighters. Right now most mines are virtually guaranteed to kill the fighters caught in them. If we only allowed 1 AD vs any fighter under the template, or 2 say, you would see fighters have some chance.
Dodge ships could have dodge reduced by half... so 3+ would go to 5+, 4+ go to 6+, 5+ go to 6+ and 6+ just loses it. Representing that they are smaller ships.
Fixes the biggest issue, the on/off approach to defenses.
Stealth would still just suck, could argue for a stealth check to place the mine right with the ships location being fluffed as only a best guess in any particular moment.
Ripple
Yeah, could say that you aren't in the damaging blast but still in the effect area, kind of like being backlit by a Hollywood explosion. Agree that the pak could be screwed but this goes back to every fleet needs at least access to all the basic abilities, or it becomes almost impossible to balance the game.
Ripple
Ripple
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
Considering what the blasts are like, I think it would be pretty hard to dodge without getting out of the blast area, or the targetting being off to the point where no damage is done.
How about a failed stealth roll meaning that you get to use half as many AD, representing the targetting be off? I'd consider something similar for dodge to represent a ship trying to angle itself to catch less of the blast, but it's harder considering how the dodge mechanic works.
Really though when it comes to dodge, I have no problems with the idea that a ship shouldn't be able to use dodge. It's just the number of AD they have to face which is the problem.
How about a failed stealth roll meaning that you get to use half as many AD, representing the targetting be off? I'd consider something similar for dodge to represent a ship trying to angle itself to catch less of the blast, but it's harder considering how the dodge mechanic works.
Really though when it comes to dodge, I have no problems with the idea that a ship shouldn't be able to use dodge. It's just the number of AD they have to face which is the problem.
nekomata fuyu said:
As a player who both faces and uses e-mines regularly I like thie sound of this idea.
P.s. The Dag'Kar is an e-mine carrier first and foremost. That is the point of the design. Making the e-mines one shot would hurt it more than extra torpedoes would help (changes the role from artilery to sniper. Narn already have plenty of ships to do that). The only solution I can see would be multiple one shot e-mines (2-3) and a special rule to limit rate of fire to one per turn. Limited ammo and increased ROF.
I could see that neko.
Was just using the reference that blast radius and kill radius are very different when dealing with raw explosives. At a certain point off center the blast just doesn't have the oomph to damage something. It's one of the reasons shrapnel helps, it expands the kill radius a lot, as it keeps the energy concentrated better.
We don't have a good way of showing this in the game, so thought maybe we could use the dodge/stealth interactions with mines to show that things are as exact as they appear. Remember the ships never stand still, so nothing is ever exactly where it appears on the table.
So stealth might have worked as the ships is even less exactly where it looks like, maybe roll a stealth check for each AD, to show exactly how close you got? Not that much extra time for most fleets as there aren't that many launchers...
Eh... just trying to get to some level of degradation rather than on/off, which is too extreme.
Ripple
Was just using the reference that blast radius and kill radius are very different when dealing with raw explosives. At a certain point off center the blast just doesn't have the oomph to damage something. It's one of the reasons shrapnel helps, it expands the kill radius a lot, as it keeps the energy concentrated better.
We don't have a good way of showing this in the game, so thought maybe we could use the dodge/stealth interactions with mines to show that things are as exact as they appear. Remember the ships never stand still, so nothing is ever exactly where it appears on the table.
So stealth might have worked as the ships is even less exactly where it looks like, maybe roll a stealth check for each AD, to show exactly how close you got? Not that much extra time for most fleets as there aren't that many launchers...
Eh... just trying to get to some level of degradation rather than on/off, which is too extreme.
Ripple
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Who says the Dag'Kar is an e-mine carrier first and foremost? Its name is a missle frigate...
nekomata fuyu
Mongoose
And we all know just how accurate naming can be in ACTA...
Lord David the Denied
Mongoose
Fair comment.
Another thought which has occurred to me is that e-mines aren't as accurate as other weapons. They're not aimed at a ship, they're aimed at a general piece of space which happens to be near one or more ships. It should not be easy to pick that one magic spot where you'll get two enemy ships that are exactly 6" apart, or put it at exactly the right distance to hit the two enemy fighters next to your ship without hitting your ship at the same time.
Roll 1D: the mine went:
1 - 0.5" too short
2 - 0.5" too far
3 - 0.5" left
4 - 0.5" right
5,6 - right where you aimed it.
This is nothing to do with stealth or dodge, it's because the energy mine is basically an unstable fusion reactor being lobbed out of a tube in the general direction of the enemy and timed to explode about where it will do some harm.
Roll 1D: the mine went:
1 - 0.5" too short
2 - 0.5" too far
3 - 0.5" left
4 - 0.5" right
5,6 - right where you aimed it.
This is nothing to do with stealth or dodge, it's because the energy mine is basically an unstable fusion reactor being lobbed out of a tube in the general direction of the enemy and timed to explode about where it will do some harm.