Yet another Battledress debate

[Border Reiver]

Without wanting to sound like an old Grognard here, what is wrong with the traditional representation of Battledress found in numerous previous Traveller publications and miniatures?

The MegaTraveller Journal from Digest Group contained an excellent article on Imperial Battledress and, to me anyway, it is probably definitive.

 

[zanwot]

Without wanting to sound like an old Grognard here, what is wrong with the traditional representation of Battledress found in numerous previous Traveller publications and miniatures?

Well as far as I am concerned that is exactly what I am describing, it is just that I can put names and explanations on things that were maybe more handwaved back then. I cannot remember the details as I was young back in CT days, but I remember one of my characters wearing a battle dress was able to sprint for example at car speeds, very handy to reach the starship under hostile fire.

Now it may well be that old and official battle dress does not include all these aspects, and my GM took liberties. In which case I'm sorry but it is just not believable for our modern understanding of technology, though it would not be the first time Traveller does that. So I'll stick to my realistic SF. A battledress has to have systems to enhance tactical awareness and use it's augmented capacities at full ptential, anything else would be silly. Augmented strengh and armor is basic stuff really at TL14.

 

[justacaveman]

Basic TL13 Battle Dress = Cr 2,000,000

Unit cost for M1 Abrams = $ 4,500,000 (approx.)

Most threads on Traveller economics put the value of a Credit at 2.5 US Dollars.

Cr2,000,000 = $5,000,000

 

[justacaveman]

I think Combat Armour and Battle Dress prices have one too many zeros in them.

I'm thinking that the solution to weak armour may need to be addressed by modifying weapon damage.

An Assault Rifle can do as little as 3 points of damage or as much as 28 points depending on hit roll, burst fire etc..

If you give weapon damage a set value (average damage for instance) you will even out the damage. Then you can add Effect, and Burst bonuses to that number. So an Assault Rifle would now do 10-20 points of damage.

And if you add a Tech Difference penalty to anti-armour ammo, that would keep low tech weapons from overwhelming high tech armour.
Such as subtracting 1 die's worth of armor piercing bonus per TL that the armour exceeds the weapon. Example: A TL12 Gauss rifle normally bypasses 4 points of armour with standard ammo, and 8 points with DSAP. If you fired it at TL14 Battle Dress, it would lose 2 points of penetration with standard ammo, and 4 points with DSAP.

These changes would keep those people who complain about characters surviving 2 bursts from an Assault rifle at point blank range a little happier, while cutting down on the high top end damage. I'll need to playtest it to see how it works.

 

[justacaveman]

I think Combat Armour and Battle Dress prices have one too many zeros in them.

I'm thinking that the solution to weak armour may need to be addressed by modifying weapon damage.

An Assault Rifle can do as little as 3 points of damage or as much as 28 points depending on hit roll, burst fire etc..

If you give weapon damage a set value (average damage for instance) you will even out the damage. Then you can add Effect, and Burst bonuses to that number. So an Assault Rifle would now do 10-20 points of damage.

And if you add a Tech Difference penalty to anti-armour ammo, that would keep low tech weapons from overwhelming high tech armour.
Such as subtracting 1 die's worth of armor piercing bonus per TL that the armour exceeds the weapon. Example: A TL12 Gauss rifle normally bypasses 4 points of armour with standard ammo, and 8 points with DSAP. If you fired it at TL14 Battle Dress, it would lose 2 points of penetration with standard ammo, and 4 points with DSAP.

These changes would keep those people who complain about characters surviving 2 bursts from an Assault rifle at point blank range a little happier, while cutting down on the high top end damage. I'll need to playtest it to see how it works.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I just can't make any sense out of this Abrams/Battle Dress comparison. One is personal armor and one is an armored vehicle typically with a turret weapon. Why not compare a combat drone with Battle dress? Two different things that each have situations when they are useful.

I've not used deck plans where marines could use Abrams for boarding actions. Even in ground missions, it is not feasible to use a tank in all situations.

 

[justacaveman]

I'm just comparing costs. All it means is that Battle Dress is way too expensive for what it does and how it's used. It's economically unviable.

 

[justacaveman]

You are probably right about remotes be used a lot more, but major use of remotes and robots hasn't been a big part of the OTU.

Marines use cutlasses, fighters and bombers are manned, Nobles duel with rapiers. The game is filled with anachronisms. That's the flavor of Traveller.

 

[CosmicGamer]

You are probably right about remotes be used a lot more, but major use of remotes and robots hasn't been a big part of the OTU.

Marines use cutlasses, fighters and bombers are manned, Nobles duel with rapiers. The game is filled with anachronisms. That's the flavor of Traveller.

I actually edited and removed that part of my previous post before you posted this.

I'm just comparing costs. All it means is that Battle Dress is way too expensive for what it does and how it's used. It's economically unviable.

Ok.

How it is used is kinda up to the people playing the game, isn't it? Perhaps you should evaluate how battle dress is used in your games. However, this is a RPG and not a tabletop miniatures strategy game, so individuals running around fighting is more appealing. Personally, I do find it a bit unrealistic and wouldn't have a bunch of soldiers in battledress doing something that tanks, ortilary, combat drones or other more suitable resources could do; unless those resources were not available in a timely fashion. So since it's already a bit unrealistic or 'make believe', I could live with what might be perceived as unrealistic prices.

Let me throw this in the mix. A TL 16 physical augmentation costs 5mil cr and gives one characteristic a +3 (1.67mil cr per bonus point). TL 13 Battle dress costs 2mil cr and gives Str and Dex a +4 boost (.25mil cr per bonus point). The battle dress can be reassigned from mission to mission, can be reassigned if the person using it is injured, can be reused if the soldier decides not to reenlist at the end of a term or retire (from service, or from life). Does this comparison help make the cost of Battle dress more palatable?

 

[justacaveman]

I'm just wondering how the Imperium can afford Battle Dress for hundreds of thousands of Marines at these prices. I realize that the Imperium is enormous with hundreds of billions of citizens, but even their resources aren't infinite.

 

[zanwot]

Concerning this issue on the price of a battledress: I think the answer is probably in the inflation hight tech equipment has. You cannot compar the price of a modern tank to a battle dress. It is like comparing the price of an assault rifle with a sword. A primitive guy woul even argue that a sword is more efficient at killing than a gun, as he probably would not realise the infinit tactical advantage of a gun. Just the same as the bulk of a modern tank makes it obsolete faced with a much smaller and more mobile battle dress.

The problem is in traveller sword coexists with gun, and with battledress, so to make that work prices inflate drastically with technology. I expect, just like in the real world, people in the higher tech planets to have much higher absolute income than the ones at lower techs, so high tech equipment could seem overpriced to an offworlder (who has comparable equipment that can do the same job for half the price on his home planet, just like in the real world: ever walked in a market in India?).

Also keep in mind that most of the Imprium population is probably living under TL 12 to 15. "Backwater" sectors like the spinward marches are the exception.

 

[CosmicGamer]

I'm just wondering how the Imperium can afford Battle Dress for hundreds of thousands of Marines at these prices. I realize that the Imperium is enormous with hundreds of billions of citizens, but even their resources aren't infinite.

I only own the core book and a couple supplements. There is nothing that I recall indicating that all, the large majority, or even a significant potion of the marines are issued battle dress.

Interestingly, the career table does have Battle dress as one of the service skills a marine would typically pick up during basic training at L0, however, Battle dress requires the skill at L1. Ranks do not provide Battle dress skill. Events can give a Vacc suit skill but no Battle dress skill [I quickly scanned this and may have missed something]) Based on dice rolls, even if a character picks up 2 skills per term, on average, it takes a 3 term marine to get the battledress skill at level 1(Maybe even 6 terms since only half the tables have battle dress skill on them!?). So, one could think that only the more experienced marines, elite troops, or some such are given battle dress.

Pg 88 does indicate that combat armor is issued to troops and mercenaries. Combat armor does not require any skill.

Another note. Not sure if it is this thread or even this website where someone mentioned Battle dress can be common because you can take it as a mustering out benefit. pg 34 does not include Battle dress as a possible armor choice although it indicates you can get the skill if you roll the benefit twice. This makes it more likely for a marine to gain the battle dress skill when mustering. Not sure how to wrap my head around that. "Hold up marine, before you muster out you need to attend a battle dress class."

 

[zanwot]

I'm just wondering how the Imperium can afford Battle Dress for hundreds of thousands of Marines at these prices. I realize that the Imperium is enormous with hundreds of billions of citizens, but even their resources aren't infinite.

I only own the core book and a couple supplements. There is nothing that I recall indicating that all, the large majority, or even a significant potion of the marines are issued battle dress.

I believe battledress is the standard equipment of Marines.
HOWEVER:
Marines are NOT the standard Imperial troops. Marines are the elite space troops, I am not even sure of their numbers, who says the Imperium has hundreds of thousands of them?

 

[CosmicGamer]

I believe battledress is the standard equipment of Marines.

Perhaps that is what the computer is for, running Battle dress expert so that those Marines can actually use their armor?

zanwot: I believe I was editing my previous post and added at least one paragraph while you were posting. Just wanted to let you know because you may have missed it.

 

[zanwot]

Well admitedly not all Marines use Battle Dress: You also have support, etc etc. But I personnaly would make Marines able to use Battle Dress with the Skill at level 0. Just don't expect them to make the most of the fancy tactical stuff.

Another note. Not sure if it is this thread or even this website where someone mentioned Battle dress can be common because you can take it as a mustering out benefit. pg 34 does not include Battle dress as a possible armor choice although it indicates you can get the skill if you roll the benefit twice. This makes it more likely for a marine to gain the battle dress skill when mustering. Not sure how to wrap my head around that. "Hold up marine, before you muster out you need to attend a battle dress class."

Nah, all those times when you roll twice a benefit and get the skill I interpret it as a retroactive justification, expecially with the battle dress training you mention. You got the training sometime earlyer, details are not important. There are other times that require this reasoning: the skill package shared by the group for example.

 

[BP]

The comparison of BattleDress to Tanks was stating that they are too weak - i.e. can't withstand lower TL anti-tank/armor weapons - for the price. This has been narrowed down to they are just too expensive, especially given the perception that Imperial Marines standardly have this type of armour.

Since BattleDress starts at TL 13 and the average Imperium is TL 12 this probably isn't the case, in addition to the other reasons mentioned for this assumption to be inaccurate (no OT source, lack of skill availiability).

More relevant - nothing states the 2 MCr cost of BattleDress is what the Imperium pays - which would still purchase in bulk and further may put restrictions on their availability - using economic penalties to limit local militias.

Even though the suit is not invincible - it still packs a lot of advantages (especially against groups not walking around equiped with crew handled heavy anti-armor weapons or high tech plasma/fusion guns... ) - so, I believe that MGT established such a high price to limit player availability. Also, the players don't need to be up against this type of tech at every encounter...

(P.S. = there is no real approx cost for an M1 Abrams - there are just way too many combinations spread out over 30 years and to numerous allies. Also, the turrent, electronics, countermeasures, etc. are often seperately priced items modularly applied - and there's a lot of them. The low end versions even have just one engine

BTW: I was a principal in developing a prototype for testing bondlines on the paper composite shells for the Abrams (moons ago) - and the outfit I worked at had 3 mid/upper end Abrams sitting around for a while - ~$18 million per! Local C5 Galaxy crews told me they could only airlift one top of the line Abrams at a time - even in transport config - lower end versions they can carry 2 in transport mode.)

 

[Infojunky]

Heck if Battle dress makes the wearer immune to fragmentation damage and the like is probably worth the 200kcr just for that. Considering frag damage is considered the greatest threat.

 

[BP]

Heck if Battle dress makes the wearer immune to fragmentation damage and the like is probably worth the 200kcr just for that. Considering frag damage is considered the greatest threat.

Excellent point for battlefield conditions - though the figure is Cr 2,000,000.

All the examples I've seen require heavy firepower and/or excellent skills/stats to bring down a BattleDress wearer - not to mention the combat advantages it offers. The price is a bit high - but I think that is for game balance more than reflective of TL/benefits. Consider - with BattleDress - PCs are extremely formidable against civilians and local authorities - only military or highly skilled/equiped persons present any real threat. This shouldn't be too easily acquired...

 

[Infojunky]

Heck if Battle dress makes the wearer immune to fragmentation damage and the like is probably worth the 200kcr just for that. Considering frag damage is considered the greatest threat.

Excellent point for battlefield conditions - though the figure is Cr 2,000,000.

I consider for the purposes of my game the 2,000,000 to be a typo.....
What you do with the OTU is your Business. 8)

All the examples I've seen require heavy firepower and/or excellent skills/stats to bring down a BattleDress wearer - not to mention the combat advantages it offers. The price is a bit high - but I think that is for game balance more than reflective of TL/benefits. Consider - with BattleDress - PCs are extremely formidable against civilians and local authorities - only military or highly skilled/equiped persons present any real threat. This shouldn't be too easily acquired...

Yep, but as point out to my players I won't limit them in their choices, their choices define the game.

And for the record I like the fact that a Gauss Rifle is a creditable threat to BD.

 

[BP]

All the examples I've seen require heavy firepower and/or excellent skills/stats to bring down a BattleDress wearer - not to mention the combat advantages it offers. The price is a bit high - but I think that is for game balance more than reflective of TL/benefits. Consider - with BattleDress - PCs are extremely formidable against civilians and local authorities - only military or highly skilled/equiped persons present any real threat. This shouldn't be too easily acquired...

Yep, but as point out to my players I won't limit them in their choices, their choices define the game...

BattleDress is expensive - so's a G/Carrier - so's a starship. The choices are in no way limited - just some are more costly... and may require players to do something to obtain!

Possession of skill is more limited than credits.

And for the record I like the fact that a Gauss Rifle is a creditable threat to BD.

So do I. I also like the fact that so is a heavy machine gun, a wrecking ball, or a garbage truck...