Yet another Battledress debate

[Infojunky]

So what is Battledress in your mind?

For me it isn't the super suit that so many of My fellow fans seem to think it is. I tend to go with the modeled that it is just powered combat armor.

A lot of people seem to equate it with the Heavy Powered Armor suits of Starship Troopers.

So Opinions?

 

[CosmicGamer]

While things may be different in someones own TU, I tend to follow the rules and I don't think there is much to debate there:

battle dress is a powered form of combat armour

Don't know what is in other publications, but battle dress in the core rulebook has protection values similar to combat armour of the same tech level.

 

[Matrix Cypher]

Starship trooper power armor is realy heavy and big, more like a walker, not quite but close.

 

[zanwot]

There really is not much choice: Battle Dress is the standard equipment of the Marines. The Marines operate on starships. On starships space is limited. Ergo Battle Dress must fit in starship corridors, even hostile starships. Ergo it is not much bigger than combat armor. However it still is the ultimate suit (call it super if you will).

But I would use a second larger version of battle Dress for the Marines who do planetary invasions,. maybe like starship troopers power armor. That version would be close to a one person advanced battle tank, pretty insane stuff.

(On a side note, I can't remember if it is officially the case but I definitly consider all types of Battle Dress have an integrated "grav belt". It would make no sense not to)

 

[justacaveman]

In the CSC book TL14 Battle Dress has a Grav Belt as standard equipment. IMTU Battle Dress comes with a lot of built-in equipment etc.

The only real problem with Battle Dress is that the armour doesn't seem to be able withstand much in the way of weapon fire. Not counting rocket launchers there are about 1/2 dozen or so TL5-10 weapons able to kill Battle Dress in 1 or 2 hits. There are even more at higher TLs.

 

[Infojunky]

However it still is the ultimate suit.

Why?

 

[BP]

So what is Battledress in your mind?

A Kilt! :lol:

Never, ever, ask what's in my mind - you don't want to know...

 

[BP]

...For me it isn't the super suit that so many of My fellow fans seem to think it is. I tend to go with the modeled that it is just powered combat armor.

Since it is traditionally somewhat standard issue (for some forces) - it wouldn't be a 'super suit'. I go with the basically powered combat armor concept.

As for bulkiness - ship quarters wouldn't really dictate it not be bulky - a command humvee is really cramped in civilian clothes - yet fully kitted combat troops operate in them for hours. That would be like dictating only skinny people could be crew...

 

[Infojunky]

So what is Battledress in your mind?

A Kilt! :lol:

Never, ever, ask what's in my mind - you don't want to know...

I see you have been hanging out (metaphorically) with Doug Berry.

 

[Klaus Kipling]

Iron Man!


or G.I. Joe....

 

[BP]

:shock:

 

[Infojunky]

Ok to get down to brass tacks I have been re-reading Shirow's Appleseed again. And the Orc suits are powered and operate in a lot of ways like I have always envisioned Battledress i.e. reducing the felt combat load, while adding to it.

Or as a agility aid under load.

 

[zanwot]

However it still is the ultimate suit.

Why?

Appart from the obvious things, I consider a guy wearing it is faster than others, and certainly is not in any way slowed down by the armor. It is really the best of both worlds for me.

 

[BP]

Looking in the rule book - Battle Dress is faily light at 26kg/12kg - I have no problem with the fact that its not indestructable.

Low TL weapons don't neccessarily equate to ineffectiveness. What TL would a wrecking ball be?

With the right experience, a medival cannon could probably neutralize a WWII tank and maybe even some modern low end ones. A multi-million ruble helo can be taken out with basically fishing line...

The discussions I have seen involved optimal situations - i.e where weapon bearer was an expert (level 3), etc. - so modifiers have to be used to achieve results. Ok - that's what modifiers are for...

 

[Infojunky]

However it still is the ultimate suit.

Why?

Appart from the obvious things, I consider a guy wearing it is faster than others, and certainly is not in any way slowed down by the armor. It is really the best of both worlds for me.

Faster? Why?

 

[justacaveman]

A basic suit of TL13 Battle Dress costs as much as an M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank.

A squad of Battle Dress equipped troops costs as much as a U.S. Army Tank Company.

A suit of battle dress can be taken down with an Autorifle (FN-FAL), an M60 Machinegun, an M2HB .50 cal Machingun (easily), a Barrett Light Fifty, a LAAW, a MAAW, and numerous other low-tech weapons.

As long as it can be taken out with small arms, Battle Dress is an expensive joke. It's not worth the money, the training time, or the loss of the troops that were counting on it's protection.

 

[BP]

A basic suit of TL13 Battle Dress costs as much as an M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank.

The cost for BattleDress always seamed steep to me - I figured the rational was to ensure players didn't just buy one at the drop of a hat... but, then again, they do provide a lot of edge in a conflict - even if they can't stop a cheap missile...

(The price of an 'M1 Abrams' varies a lot - since that is the general (pun intended ) name that covers a whole range of configurations and option packages... and the low end versions can be taken out by the weapons you mention below - and they lack the other benifits of BattleDress)

Irregardless - its not a tank - by that rational the U.S. space suits at $12 million dollars should be tougher than several tanks combined .

A suit of battle dress can be taken down with an Autorifle (FN-FAL), an M60 Machinegun, an M2HB .50 cal Machingun (easily), a Barrett Light Fifty, a LAAW, a MAAW, and numerous other low-tech weapons.

As long as it can be taken out with small arms, Battle Dress is an expensive joke. It's not worth the money, the training time, or the loss of the troops that were counting on it's protection.

LAAW? - So a suit can be taken out by anti-tank weapons? How's that a stretch?

Or even a 600 round per minute (often 2 man gun crewed) weapon with armour peircing rounds or a 50 cal armor piercing machine gun originally designed for taking out armoured vehicles and whose most basic armor-piercing shell has to penetrate almost an 1" of steel from 100 yards (and that's not counting the fancy rounds) with about a 500 round per minute rate of fire?

And, for the money, you get a space suit that is also a deep diving suit, nuclear, biological & chemical suit - plus impervious to fire. And it significantly increases speed and strength and can have numerous upgrades (grav assist, etc.)

When it comes to even (especially) primitive weapons Tanks are survivable in large part due to their mass. So regardless of the millions spent on military aircraft - they can't survive the weapons you mentioned either (if they are in range and not an A-10 Thunderbolt ) - but they serve different roles. Both have their uses.

(P.S. - relatively cheap, low tech missiles can take out hundreds of millions of Credit spaceships too, but this doesn't make spaceships worthless in a fight).

 

[justacaveman]

Actually TL13 Battle Dress with no options costs about 500,000 USD more than a Base model M1 Abrams Tank.

The current 12 million USD Vacc Suits used by the U.S. are highly experimental, and we're not talking about equipping 100s of thousands of Imperial Marines with them.

The M1 Abrams Tank is highly unlikely to be seriously damaged by multiple hits by anything I listed except the MAAW. The Battle Dress equipped soldier can be dropped by a single hit from any of the weapons I listed (the Autorifle and M60 would probably take 2 or 3 hits), and most wouldn't require more than 2 hits.

 

[Infojunky]

A basic suit of TL13 Battle Dress costs as much as an M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank.

So where do you get that number?

Now the price of Battledress has been inflated by an order of magnitude in the MGT Edition from the CT edition.

A suit of battle dress can be taken down with an Autorifle (FN-FAL), an M60 Machinegun, an M2HB .50 cal Machingun (easily), a Barrett Light Fifty, a LAAW, a MAAW, and numerous other low-tech weapons.

The funny thing is I would expect all the weapons you listed as threats to Battledress considering there is armor piercing ammo for them all. Considering that ammo will advance along side armor advances.

As long as it can be taken out with small arms, Battle Dress is an expensive joke. It's not worth the money, the training time, or the loss of the troops that were counting on it's protection.

Kinda, with the price increase make it kinda iffy...

 

[zanwot]

There is an issue in that I am talking "fluff" while alot of you are talking "rules". I have not yet tested enough MGT rules to judge them.

Why?

Appart from the obvious things, I consider a guy wearing it is faster than others, and certainly is not in any way slowed down by the armor. It is really the best of both worlds for me.

Faster? Why?

I was looking for a movie which would be a better illustaration of what I view BattleDress as, and I think I have found it: From the trailer it seems the suits they wear in the GI Joe movie are close to what I view battledress like, with a bit of Iron Man thrown in (for the gravitics and high armor value, the gravitics would probably even be used for shock absorption on the highest TL one), plus some neural controls thrown in for good measure, along with integrated medical systems which control the adrenaline level in the blood etc. Weapons would probably not be necessarily integrated into the suit though, unlike in the JI Joe trailer IIRC, but they could be on some.