Xenophobia in Conan

[Polite Elliot]

How do you handle xenophobia in Hyboria?

I thought Stygians & Cimmerians hated outsiders but its not really covered in the sourcebooks. Is this a mistake in the Conan RPG?

Doesn't running heroic adventures in nations who don't like foreigners, like Stygia or Cimmeria, take away some of the fun?

I mean few players will want to help people who despise them and who wants to travel countries where the populace distrust and shun you?

Interested to hear what more experienced GM's have to say

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Not really, my campaign started with the PC's being slaves in Stygia, now they are heading towards Shem to get backing for a war against Stygia.

 

[Hervé]

Howard stories have often been labelled as xenophobic, not to say racist.
I personnally think that even though racism is absent from REH stories, xenophia is quite present. There's often an ancestral hatred between races in the stories (and not only in Conan stories). I don't want to start a debate about this, but as xenophobia is present in the Howard stories, it's still there in my campaign world. The cimmerian/pict hatred is quite present in my stories, for instance. As for stygians, no one in Hyboria really likes them...

 

[Etepete]

We have to distinguish between

A) Whether certain in-game cultures, PC:s and NPC:s are xenophobic or racist.

B) Whether the stories themselves are xenophobic or racist.

C) Whether the Hyborian Age is xenophobic or racist in itself.

I believe all three statements to be true. The two last ones isn't as terrible as one might think, since this is true of many works of fiction of the era. As long as players and GM are aware of these traits, I don't see how a work of fiction could be off-limits just because it was written during a certain time where certain ideas were prevalent.

 

[Majestic7]

I agree with Etepete and I think the first thing should be present in the games as well. Most player characters should, by definition, be racist, if not xenophobic, unless they've had overwhelmingly cosmopolitan experiences. Of course, I think most players will find it hard to play racist characters because racism in general has become such cultural taboo in western societies. Just because racism is horrible in the real world doesn't mean that it shouldn't be accurately portrayed in a role playing game, though - especially since it is so obviously present in Hyboria. It's not like playing a Darfar babyeater would imply that the player thinks eating babies to be fun and acceptable part of diet.

 

[Jeffreywns]

I use it as a background or tool. The Stygian in our group (independant scholar) has no alliances or worship that ties him to his racial "norms". But took the Royal Blood feat. To claim his first level as a noble he will have to return to his family in Stygia- ADVENTURE FOR GROUP. The Vanir knows that if he travels in Aesgard, Cimmeria, or Pictland the likely result of an encounter will be " they roar a battlecry and attack" as opposed to being viewed as a barbarian far from home. Our desert shemite would face the same animosity in a Plains Shemite city state if he dressed tribaly. It really depends on the GM and players taste.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

I was referring to this portion of the post:

"Doesn't running heroic adventures in nations who don't like foreigners, like Stygia or Cimmeria, take away some of the fun?"

I can be fun!!!

 

[Brass Jester]

I would handle this through role-playing of the characters, rather than have a 'mechanism' to enforce ideals etc. This is where alignment systems break down, strait-jacketing PC's/NPC's into fixed mindsets.

Are you suggesting that the sourcebooks should say "Cimmerians hate Picts, Aquilonians, Bossonians, Nordheimers and in fact anyone else who wanders past." Ditto for Stygia. I think the sourcebooks handle it just fine; the Stygia book describes how the Stygians see themselves and their role in civilisation; the GM can extrapolate from there. Mixed groups can work together (xref Phoenix on the Sword), working for a shared goal even when they probably all hate each others guts. And look how Thoth-Amon reacted as soon as he got the Ring back. But that was him. Another Stygian might have seized control of the group first; then continued with the plot to kill Conan.

"As for stygians, no one in Hyboria really likes them..."

Yes, but in Zamboula the Stygians don't like the Turanians etc.

 

[Krushnak]

Doesn't running heroic adventures in nations who don't like foreigners, like Stygia or Cimmeria, take away some of the fun?

I mean few players will want to help people who despise them and who wants to travel countries where the populace distrust and shun you?

never seemed to stop Conan from having fun. if anything it made it all the more sweet when he robbed from them.

 

[sidkfjjteidlkkf]

Here Here

 

[argo]

Doesn't running heroic adventures in nations who don't like foreigners, like Stygia or Cimmeria, take away some of the fun?

No, it gives the GM a plot-excuse why the players have to be self-sufficent adventurers (can't run to the locals for help... they hate you) and makes the player victory all that much sweeter when they escape/plunder the treasure/force the locals to acknowledge their greatness.

Just remember, the players should win over the locals at the end of the adventure (even if "winning" means "escape with your hide intact"). If you have the players accomplish the adventure goals and then the locals react with disdain/apathy then you will be taking away the fun. Even if you have the locals run the players off make it clear that they are running the players off because they are pissed that the players got the better of them... which means they acknowledge that the players did indeed get the better of them.

Hope that helps.

 

[Sarov the Swift]

Doesn't running heroic adventures in nations who don't like foreigners, like Stygia or Cimmeria, take away some of the fun?

I will refer to another game to answer this question. Battlelords of the 31st Century is a game where xenophobia, particularly alien xenophobia is integral to the environment. Every race hates just about every other race in the game. This sets up a great dynamic between the players who have a defined sense of their racial and class motivations, and sets off all kinds of wonderful fueds, rivalries, and other fun roleplay exchanges. Part of the fun is also working past those differences and finding common ground before the external threats tear the party apart.

In my latest Conan campaign, which is just about to start, I have a priest of Set and a priest of Ibis in the party. I'm practically salivating as a GM to see how this goes down!

 

[Jeffreywns]

Which take on the Cult of Ibis is the preist following? The good guy misunderstood sect or the sinister secret cult?

 

[Sarov the Swift]

Which take on the Cult of Ibis is the preist following? The good guy misunderstood sect or the sinister secret cult?

The good guy misunderstood sect.

 

[Axerules]

Welcome to the forum, Elliot. I'm with Majestic7 on this. I don't have any problem in using the setting as it was written by REH (xenophobic).

I am by no means a racist. I have friends from different origins, religions and colours. One of my players is actually black.

IMHO, as long as we are all able to make the difference between a fiction and the real world, everything's fine. If you're not able to separate both, then trouble can arise.

And if you want a "politically correct" Hyboria, what about your average RPG ? Most players of D&D do steal/loot/murder people. A lot of RPG's allow you to play an assassin, a blood-drinking vampire or do ethnic cleansing when you meet goblins/orcs/bad guys.
So it would be "wrong" to implement racism in games and "fun" to play mass-murderers ? Do you usually tone down all this in other RPG's ?

I will not grab my katana to kill people after a fight on a tactical grid nor become a racist after reading or playing in REH's Hyboria. This is fiction and the racism should be used as a tool, like the blood-drinking stuff is a tool in Vampire, like the kill-em-all-and-take-what's-theirs approach is a tool in D&D.

 

[Clovenhoof]

I haven't implemented a lot of racism in my game, but then, the players haven't come far yet. I think either approach can fit such a setting well, or you can also mix and match. For example, the races section reads that Cimmerians are friendly with Aesir but hostile with Vanir, oh well Vanir hate pretty much everyone.
So some cultures will be more xenophobic than others. For example, in my game, the Hyborian races will consider the Hyrkanians pretty much like Orcs in Tolkien, i.e. monsters rather than humans. (We have no Hyrkanian PC so it won't affect the group directly.) Similarly for Picts, obviously. However, a Kushite in the Hyborian nations will more likely be a "hey look here" attraction and not necessarily be met with hostility.

 

[Willowhugger]

I run racism in Hyborea as very different than people expect but something that works very well for me. First, I show don't tell. Basically, everyone pretty much hates/holds in disdain almost everyone else. However, the tribalism of the people actually isn't that intense by comparison to much of the world.

Let's use a literary model for a start. Conan the Cimmerian

Conan the Cimmerian presumably reflects as much of Robert Howard's views on Hyborea as possible. Conan's racism is fairly well established. In the context of Howard, Conan holds the following beliefs.

* A sexual preferance for light skinned women (though not to the extent of excluding other women)

* A belief that the cannibal tribes of one region are loathesome (Howard's making of such a group is arguable)

And oddly enough, that's about it.

Strangely, while Howard might put in the Aquilonian sentiment that the Picts were not considered "white" by the settlers, it's noteworthy that Conan himself never expresses the view. He also has a nationalist distaste for a large number of kingdoms but more or less gets along with all of them.

It's very Edgar Rice Burroughs to have "The White Guy who can do everyone's Native Culture better than they can." However, Conan did that frequently with everyone's culture including most of the Whites. Conan out-Asgards, out-Aquilonians, out-Zamorans, everyone. Yet, also, Conan lived as a King of a Black Kingdoms tribe for goodness knows how long as well. He's not even prejudice against Stygians and gladly works for Set-worshipers when the money or sex looks good.

Overall, it seems that while racism was pervasive in Hyborea, it was also a very cosmopolitan culture as well. Conan the Cimmerian is able to get work in Aquilonia as a scout and pretty much every other place in the land. No one expresses any revulsion at Conan's many sexual congress acts with women of what we can only take to be a wide variety of races (even though plenty of women express horror at being captured by 'savages', they frequently do the same to Conan).

This is again, a very common form of racism around Howard's time but I think we should mark it's type.

Howard is probably around a 2 on a scale of 1/10 (0 being "Everybody is the Same") surprisingly and would probably count as reasonably progressive despite his Texas and conservative background.

Which I find surprises a lot of people but seems born about. Conan and, by proxy, Howard seemed to long to visit Exotic cultures and experience the world.

 

[Hervé]

As far as I remember (I don't have the book at hand), in The Vale Of Lost Women, Conan states he wouldn't let "a white woman in the hands of a black man". I know it was 80 years ago (and in Texas!) but stuff like this really stink.
My vision of the hyborian world is racist, xenophobic and sexist but we must stay ever watchful when walking on this slippery way. I've been surprised one or two times by the reactions of certain players when allowed to let their "bad side" out.

 

[bradius]

My group is very politically incorrect. We don't engage in needless racism, but if it appropriate, then it is used. The Hyborian age certianly had its racism, as does our age. We don't shy away from it if it works for the story.

 

[Old Bear]

As far as I remember (I don't have the book at hand), in The Vale Of Lost Women, Conan states he wouldn't let "a white woman in the hands of a black man". I know it was 80 years ago (and in Texas!) but stuff like this really stink.
My vision of the hyborian world is racist, xenophobic and sexist but we must stay ever watchful when walking on this slippery way. I've been surprised one or two times by the reactions of certain players when allowed to let their "bad side" out.

To be fair to Conan the 'blacks' in question are the sort of blokes who make Robert Mugabe look like a nice sort of chap. He would be just as likely to think the same about Zingaran freebooters or Turanians in general. Conan is an equal opportunities hater.

Essentially the world of Hyboria is a down and dirty place, and as such bears far more similarity to the real world than any other fantasy setting I ever read.

BTW, having a predisposition to sexual partners of your own race does not, IMHO, make one a racist.

I think people slit their own wrists way too much over Conan. It's a fantasy world, remember, and should be embraced and enjoyed as such. Anybody that can't cope with that has a dozen other lamer fantasy setting to choose from.