Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
I'd say it's feasible, if you know what you're going to do with the missiles.
Actually Traveller is a RPG the combat was a part of that and never meant to be used as a war game. GDW produced wargames for the Traveller universe. I’d say that’s one of the problems people keep trying to make Traveller itself a war gameTraveller has always been more of an RPG with wargaming bolted on to it, thus it's combat system is, charitably, fuzzy at best.
Check out the companion that where 5hey are statedIt's inconsistent.
However, assuming that the missile pack is still valid, it does mean that missile (solo) launcher and the missile packing case have the same dimensions.
Well, that's getting a bit murkier into things. High Guard was created to allow for wargaming, though not like other games produced by GDW or other publishers. It was somewhere between an RPG and actual wargame. Striker rules would, I think, be considered detailed enough to be classified as wargaming rules. And therein lies another rub - Striker is an adjunct addon, but also not part of the RPG really or the ship combat system.Actually Traveller is a RPG the combat was a part of that and never meant to be used as a war game. GDW produced wargames for the Traveller universe. I’d say that’s one of the problems people keep trying to make Traveller itself a war game
It's a terrible word salad label for things. Due to the poor word choices it's what driving this disagreement over exactly what the hell things are. I do have to take exception though to how you are interpreting the word "multilaunchers". As an MLRS crewmember (Multiple Launch Rocket System) we had arguably, one launcher with two launch bays, or 'multi-launchers' since we had two distinct launch bays, each equipped with 6 individual rockets in a single rocket pod. It's a messy word describing an interpretable definition.Let’s break this down again Multilaunchers: Multi means multiple, Launchers means plural when put together as a single word it means multiple launchers. That is how the word breaks down.
Dogfighting rules break everything it’s kind of like the Battletech dueling rules that FASA came out with for the Solaris box set it doesn’t make sense and breaks the game. Also like everything in the companion the dogfighting rules are optional ie not core and in this case doesn’t really work with the core.
Traveller is not and never was meant to be a war game! If you want that look elsewhere or ask mongoose to make one but Traveller is a RPG
This is turning out to be the same as the vehicle thread where a bunch of gear heads kept arguing for changes that would make a Great War game supplement but distract from the purpose of being a RPG supplement. I’m signing of this thread it’s been chewed to death and no one’s yet counter my original response which was from the RP side giving all the reasons that a merchant is unlikely to arm his ship with missiles.
Except that the "multi" prefix pluralises a non plural; word and often indicates compound plurality e.g. multiverse = many universes overlayed on each other, multipack = many packs in a single larger pack, multiplex (e.g. cinema) = many (cinemas) in one, multimillionaire = one person who has many millions. So multilauncher could definitely mean many launchers in one. It does not indicate what elements are shared. As you point out launchers is plural making the multi part redundant if the intent was simply to mean multiple launchers.Let’s break this down again Multilaunchers: Multi means multiple, Launchers means plural when put together as a single word it means multiple launchers. That is how the word breaks down.
Arguably the main space combat rules are the things that should be changed since dogfighting uses the same timescale as the non-space combat rules. The movement rules in space combat are an abstraction that does not agree with the rules for moving your ship through normal space when not in combat so it "breaks the game". If you get close enough for boarding you are going to drop into 6 second turns anyway, so why not once you get to close range.Dogfighting rules break everything it’s kind of like the Battletech duelling rules that FASA came out with for the Solaris box set it doesn’t make sense and breaks the game. Also like everything in the companion the dogfighting rules are optional ie not core and in this case doesn’t really work with the core.
We used to have this this wargame vs RPG on the car wars forums. The fact is that any RPG that has a tactical movement either built-in or decided to add one (Striker, Ashanti High) has a wargaming element (when the position and armament of the character is more important than their motivation). As many of those 70's games were hybrids (and their authors and player base often has grown out of the wargaming hobby) it is a fairly pointless distinction and is a matter of belief rather than fact.Traveller is not and never was meant to be a war game! If you want that look elsewhere or ask mongoose to make one but Traveller is a RPG
I did try to engage with your original posts but as your first few posts were based on misquotes of the wording in the rules it was difficult to agree with you without first establishing what we were discussing. I tried to explore the various decision points systematically from various angles but you got offensive fairly quickly and accused people of going off topic because you did not agree with discussion of things outside your interpretation of the problem space.This is turning out to be the same as the vehicle thread where a bunch of gear heads kept arguing for changes that would make a Great War game supplement but distract from the purpose of being a RPG supplement. I’m signing of this thread it’s been chewed to death and no one’s yet counter my original response which was from the RP side giving all the reasons that a merchant is unlikely to arm his ship with missiles.
Yes, this is the traditional model of piracy.Who is liable for the loss of freight to pirates?
Pirate - heave to me hearties and hand over yer booty
universe 1 - ship is liable - Merchant Captain - launch missiles, target lasers, give em so much damage it will cost them more in repairs than the cargo is worth
Pirate - bollocks, runs away and jumps before missiles hit.
universe 2 - freight owner is insured and ship is not liable - merchant captain - sure, here take it, we've been paid anyway.
I used to think the same, but HG has other ideas:A triple launcher turret has 36
So 12 missiles, regardless of the number of launchers.Each turret with one or more missile racks holds 12 missiles.
Ah. I misunderstood. Thanks.I used to think the same, but HG has other ideas:
So 12 missiles, regardless of the number of launchers.
And isn't that just silly? Why would you carry missiles as cargo instead of as ready munitions in a magazine either adjacent to, or with a feed mechanism? Will the Captain say "Excuse me Mr. Enemy, I have exhausted my ready munitions, but I promise you we can still volley missiles at each other if you'll only give me some time to transfer them from the cargo hold to the missile magazine. Would you care for some Words with Friends while we wait?"It's another example of Mongoose authors changing things.
The original CT version has it as follows:
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns.*The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. **Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn inter-phase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crew members who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.
The Mongoose authors deleted the missiles in the launch rack and only account for the stored missiles in the turret, regardless of the number of weapons in the turret.
In CT turret by mounts: ready to fire, reload, in turret storage
s turret 1+2+12
d turret 2+4+12
t turret 3+6+12
IRL missiles carried as cargo often take up more space than missiles in a ready to fire configuration due to the packaging to make them less vulnerable to damage in storage and transit. To a degree they are also "peace-bound" which means civilian carriers can move them without them being classed as armed. Finally it provides anti-tamper evidence.And isn't that just silly? Why would you carry missiles as cargo instead of as ready munitions in a magazine either adjacent to, or with a feed mechanism? Will the Captain say "Excuse me Mr. Enemy, I have exhausted my ready munitions, but I promise you we can still volley missiles at each other if you'll only give me some time to transfer them from the cargo hold to the missile magazine. Would you care for some Words with Friends while we wait?"
Missiles are not fired from breech loaders like artillery is. They are launched and nothing remains. This goes back to the idea that player gunners have something to do. When they conceived Traveller in the 70s naval crew still did do something for each missile launched (depending on the type, an example is the Terrier) - and that was to attach fins to the missiles because they were not stowed with them attached. That has not been the issue in many decades, yet the authors have not changed this. Maybe in a few more decades we'll see this corrected...
Can you give a page reference to this, I could only find the below in LBB2(81) p32:It's another example of Mongoose authors changing things.
The original CT version has it as follows:
MISSILE STORAGE
Each standard missile rack can hold one missile ready to fire and two additional missiles ready for future game turns.*The role of the gunner in the turret is to aim and fire the weaponry in the turret; once the missile racks and ready missiles are exhausted, the gunner must reload them with new missiles. A gunner can load new missiles into the racks and still operate the weaponry in a game turn.
The standard turret has room to store an additional 12 missiles in it. **Once these missiles have been used, the turret must be restocked with missiles carried elsewhere in the ship (usually in the cargo hold).
Restocking a turret with missiles is accomplished during the game turn inter-phase. If the gunner participates in restocking, he may not operate weaponry in the turret in the next game turn. It is possible for non-gunner crew members who are not otherwise engaged to perform restocking instead. One person can restock a turret in one game turn.
The Mongoose authors deleted the missiles in the launch rack and only account for the stored missiles in the turret, regardless of the number of weapons in the turret.
In CT turret by mounts: ready to fire, reload, in turret storage
s turret 1+2+12
d turret 2+4+12
t turret 3+6+12
It's probably worse than silly. A gunner is allowed to build missiles from components prior to loading into the launch system.And isn't that just silly? Why would you carry missiles as cargo instead of as ready munitions in a magazine either adjacent to, or with a feed mechanism? Will the Captain say "Excuse me Mr. Enemy, I have exhausted my ready munitions, but I promise you we can still volley missiles at each other if you'll only give me some time to transfer them from the cargo hold to the missile magazine. Would you care for some Words with Friends while we wait?"
Some missiles are breech loaded. Quite a few tank guns have been designed to launch missiles rather than fire cannon rounds. There are still modern tanks with a loader crew member, but a lot are going the way of autoloaders.Missiles are not fired from breech loaders like artillery is. They are launched and nothing remains. This goes back to the idea that player gunners have something to do. When they conceived Traveller in the 70s naval crew still did do something for each missile launched (depending on the type, an example is the Terrier) - and that was to attach fins to the missiles because they were not stowed with them attached. That has not been the issue in many decades, yet the authors have not changed this. Maybe in a few more decades we'll see this corrected...
Apologies I sometimes forget that this is Mongoose and not everyone is familiar with the CT corpus (I would recommend ever single Traveller fan get the cd/thumbdrives/dropbox versions from Marc direct - $35 for everything is too good a deal and I don'e know if Mongoose will continue it)Can you give a page reference to this, I could only find the below in LBB2(81) p32:
Reloading: Each launcher (sand or missile) has an inherent capacity for three missiles or canisters. This means that a triple turret with three missile launchers has a total of 9 missiles in ready position.
When a launcher's missiles or canisters are exhausted, it may be reloaded by the turret's gunner in one turn. Reloading three launchers would take three turns. A gunner engaged in reloading is unable to fire other weaponry in the turret.
It seems odd to me that a turret that is the same size regardless of the number of launchers fitted is capable of carrying more missiles. Common sense would indicate that the more launchers in a turret, the less space would be available for for missiles (either as part of the launcher or in the 12 missile reserve).
Mongoose allows 12 missiles per turret regardless of the number of launchers. Presumably one loaded per launcher and the rest in an autoloader ready for use which makes a bit more sense to me (and is easier to manage).