Women of the Traveller Universe

Jeff Hopper said:
Just a reality check here...

If you would like to hoot and hollar about the objectification of women in gaming art, there are a lot worse offenders than Traveller (in any of its incarnations).

For example, here is some artwork from White Wolf's Exalted game:

SavantSo.png
Yeesh, she let those cream cakes go straight to her hips!
 
kristof65 said:
Nope, Traveller isn't the worst offender at all - let's keep it that way.

Marc Miller and Matthew Sprange already have that covered with Section 18 of the OGL.
Section 18 said:
Sexual Themes - Sexual situations—including abuse and pornography—may not appear graphically in art or text. When depicting the human form—or creatures possessing humaniform features—gratuitous nudity, the depiction of genitalia, bare female nipples, and sexual or bathroom activity is not acceptable. While sensuality and sexuality may appear in a covered product, it must not be the focus nor can it be salacious in nature.


kristof65 said:
Overall, when it comes to Traveller, I'd like to see a wide variety of artwork, to cover the entire spectrum of possibilities

Agreed.
 
SF clothing fits certain particular stereotypes. Having watched over 1000 sf tv episodes in the last 3 years (and taken notes!) I feel I can speak somewhat with authority. ;)

Skintight is a favourite, both male and female (Gil Gerard's outfit was often as tight, and often much more skimpy, than Erin Gray's).

Star Trek TNG onwards has some serious fashion faux pas, from Wesley Crusher's Reader's Digest home knitting patterns, to the identical outfits worn by some s1 pleasure planet lot, where the men were in more danger of spilling out of their clothes than the women (I say clothes, but pouch would be a better description). It always amused me too that while then TNG men's uniform got more and more roomy, to accomodate those expanding waistlines, the ladies uniforms remained figure hugging. Naughty (they should have brought back those totally skintight suits from S1-2 for all, including skirts for men!)

The big transgressor is skintight but low cut, showing massive cleavage. Take a bow Deanna Troi, Chiana, and Trance Gemini.

Skintight and leathery, therefore serious fetish, became popular in the 90's, culminating inthe Matrix after which everyone wore leather coats (Farscape, I'm looking at you).

Giant collars are also a mark of SF, starting with good old Ming the Merciless, but common throughout Star Tek and Space 1999, culminating in an S3 ep of Blakes 7, where the collars were almost higher than their heads, and at one point there was a fire crew that seemed to be dressed as extra strong mints. B7 though was a big offender when it came to dressing their sci-fi peeps in old Robin Hood outfits - usually with MASSIVE sleeves.

Thing is I could believe Wilma Deering's outfit (if you take into account Buck's), but Seven of Nine and T'Pol's S1-S2 chicken fillets are pretty unforgivable.

Also terrible are high heels on 'action girls' - all shows seem to offend in this area, with the possible exception of BSG.

Speaking of that, Six's red dress is far more justifiable than Deanna's cleavage or Seven of Nine in general, as it define's the character and makes the point.

It seems the current 'look' for women between 20 and 40 (going by my colleagues and the folk I pass on the way to work) is form fitting and demurely attractive, though not overtly sexual. I only see massive cleavage on a Friday or Saturday night.

So, to get to the point in the wandering rambly waffle, cleavage is only acceptable on 'party' outfits, but form fitting (as opposed to skintight) is totally justified.

As an aside, and it is a different genre, but has anyone watched Legend of the Seeker? While there is some fine cleavage based fan service for the boys (and the odd fetish leather suit), the ladies are treated repeatedly and at length to the heroes well muscled physique.

Nowt wrong with fan service as long as it treats all folk equally. :)
 
Ah, Servalan and Wilma Deering. :)

On a more recent note, the Cyberwoman from the episode of that name in Torchwood was a serious offender. I mean, bare midriff? Kitten heels? I know her look had been designed to appeal to the Sexy Robot Female fetishists, but really ...
 
Jeff Hopper said:
For example, here is some artwork from White Wolf's Exalted game:

SavantSo.png

That one got some pretty widespread derision :). Just look at some of the Avalanche Press fantasy stuff for some really ridiculous examples.

So no, Traveller's not the worst by far.
 
The rather skewed version of anime and manga we had in the West has had it's malign influence on sf/fantasy art.

At least the none-outfit of a Vallejo lady was wearable without glue, compared to some of the recent stuff out there.

We could blame superheroes too. They all wear skintight spandex.

One other factor in this. Skintight is easier to draw than baggier clothing. All that life drawing means an artist is very familiar with the nude form and anatomy. Getting the way clothes hang right and consistent takes much more conceptualisation. Just smoothing over the naughty bits, drawing a line at collar and cuffs, then recolouring the body, et viola, a catsuit (ok that's a little overstated, it's not quite that simple, but simpler than than fashion). Used judiciously a handy time saver for a jobbing illustrator, but is oft done too much within some genres.

All in all, Traveller has been among the least offenders in this regard. Some unfortunate mullets, yes, but that seems to be behind it now.
 
EDG said:
You know, I think I figured out what's been bugging me about this thread.

It's like saying:

Men in the Traveller Universe:

Which direction do you think Traveller artists should take their art for men?

Old School

Vila.jpg



Revised School

MalReynoldsFirefly.JPG

(OK, Villa was the most average, plain, normal guy I could think of in SF :) ).


But people don't ask this sort of thing, because how men are portrayed is never really an issue. So why should the portrayal of women be an issue too? Why do we actually need to ask the question? After all, we don't see guys in SF art being portrayed as handsome, square-jawed hunks with ripped-open shirts, so why should women be portrayed as gorgeous, voluptuous babes in skintight/skimpy outfits? We don't really make much of an effort thinking about how the guys are portrayed so why make the effort about women? Just do the same as you do with the guys - make 'em look natural, and like they're doing their job.

If Traveller's supposed to be more about the "everyday joe" then just draw everyone as ordinary, everyday joes. Sure, the nobility will tend to be more stylish (because they can afford to be), as will the entertainers - just as they are today. But everyone else is just going to be wearing whatever they need to do the job they need to do, be it a uniform, or a comfy outfit or a power suit. Some may take pride in their appearance still, others may not care so much. And they're going to come in a wide range of physiques too - tall, short, thin, fat, athletic, whatever. Some physiques will naturally be ruled out by the profession (you're not likely to get fat military types after all) but there's still going to be a range of possibilities.

I guess really I'm just saying that it's best to not sweat it too much. If an artist is just guided by common sense and normality then he'll probably turn out something fine and appropriate- if he isn't, then it'll be cheesecake and he'll be rightfully derided for it. ;)

That is because by in large...Mongoose has got it right. It has enough visual appeal for those who like the beefcake look of say Terminator or the Marines from Aliens (save Gorman...), the corporate exec types, the stealthy spy.

As I said the artists that I know look at action magazines (and let us face the market for those are men who are looking at men doing manly things) and then extrapolate characters on top. Now, if they were to do the same thing for women...there is not much out there...therefore, the portrayal of women in RPG art becomes an issue. My first two posts show how much we have not changed in Traveller. I would naturally like us to push more toward the latter but I am open to hearing what others think.

Art should not emphasis the plain Jane or Jayne of the Far Future but adventure...therefore, as much as Accountancy is a valuable skill in running Free Trader Beowulf...I don't want to see the Accountant. I want something that conveys adventure and if that is sensual...then it is feeding all senses.
 
kafka said:
Art should not emphasis the plain Jane or Jayne of the Far Future but adventure...therefore, as much as Accountancy is a valuable skill in running Free Trader Beowulf...I don't want to see the Accountant. I want something that conveys adventure and if that is sensual...then it is feeding all senses.
The idea that an accountant would not be sensual, and that only hand-
some and pretty people would convey adventure, seems a bit too much
Hollywood and too little plausible to me. :)

Besides, I would very much hesitate to reduce art to the task to convey
adventure.
A plausible setting, the background of all roleplaying adventures, consists
mostly of everyday people in everyday situations, and to remove them
from the picture would make it a rather dull repetition of a comparatively
small number of the kind of scenes one finds on roleplaying game covers:
A monotony of stereotypes.

So, I want pictures - good art - for my setting and campaign, but I want
"the full picture", not just the "pretty" or "adventurous" parts of it.
Because otherwise the art would not create the image of a plausible set-
ting that feels complete, rich and "real" in the minds of the players, all it
would produce would be unconnected cuts from a bad Hollywood movie. :D
 
It seems old school 'CT Marc-approved-Keith-illustrated' wasn't all that squeaky clean, (what a practical outfit she has on here :wink: ).
This is a WHK illustration from Merchant Prince (1982), I personally do not find the current Mongoose style any more 'raunchy' than this, (if it is right or not is a different matter).

keithdrawing.jpg
 
kafka said:
That is because by in large...Mongoose has got it right.

Has anyone ever actually got it wrong with the portrayal of men in SF?
With pictures of women, people seem overly concerned about the size of their boobs, or their bum, or how skimpy an outfit they're wearing etc. I don't hear too many complaints about pictures of men that go on about how someone's too square-jawed, or how their pecs are too big or that they're too muscular or too scrawny or whatever though.

We're clearly capable of not really giving a damn about the portrayal of men (and yet they turn out fine), so why do we have to make such a big deal about the portrayal of women?


Now, if they were to do the same thing for women...there is not much out there...

Apart from, y'know, reality ;).
 
Beech said:
... what a practical outfit she has on here ...
Interesting - this was high European fashion at about the time when the
drawing was made, although very few women did really wear it, except
perhaps in Milano or Paris.

So at least one Traveller artist did get some inspiration from a fashion
designer, in this case probably Yves Saint Laurent. :D

The German Wikipedia has an article about it, but I did not find one in the
English Wikipedia - perhaps this fashion trend was known by another na-
me there:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nude-Look
 
EDG said:
Has anyone ever actually got it wrong with the portrayal of men in SF?
With pictures of women, people seem overly concerned about the size of their boobs, or their bum, or how skimpy an outfit they're wearing etc. I don't hear too many complaints about pictures of men that go on about how someone's too square-jawed, or how their pecs are too big or that they're too muscular or too scrawny or whatever though.

We're clearly capable of not really giving a damn about the portrayal of men (and yet they turn out fine), so why do we have to make such a big deal about the portrayal of women?

As I said, I do think that Mongoose has nailed the male form (other than being quite uniformly Caucasian) right. There is the right assortment of rogue's characters that make up a campaign. Perhaps, underrepresented are the fat beer drinking star pilots who make up the Redneck space trucking fleet from Uranus. That said, there is room for improvement always. As I have said many a time the Rebellion Sourcebook is one of the all time "classic" Traveller pieces and very much in tune with the second picture that I posted. But, heck, EDG, if you want to see more accountants in space...then I am sure Mongoose can oblige. For me, I want to see adventure.

This brings me to point that Rust makes...yes all those things are necessary for great adventure. I would not dispute a single phrase. Save the art is important for tying the whole thing together. Traditionally, Traveller art has been on the rather bland side by contemporary RPG standards very much stuck in the 1970s...especially when it has come around to women. What we need to have art in every product that screams out that I want to have a look at the content now. And, if women continue to be portrayed as they were in the 70s...I don't think we will win all that many new players on that account alone. So I think that we have to learn from Hollywood just as Hollywood learnt from the covers of the Science Fiction paperbacks. Hollywood should be so sneered upon rather let us take lessons from what works and disregard the rest.

Now, if they were to do the same thing for women...there is not much out there...

Apart from, y'know, reality ;).

My point exactly. Maybe you live in some sort of cave, but, I literally see hundreds of beautiful ordinary people everyday. True, I live in a major metropolitan area but reality is infinitely more beautiful than what adores the covers of fashion magazines or porn. All the more reason to "capture" it and change the context.

As I said, I have nothing wrong with sensuality and sexuality...one just has to be mature about...which is where the cheaper elements of fantasy RPGs get it wrong.

re: Nude Look - I remember discos in Prague when this was all the rage....but be careful Rust we don't want to break Marc's sanctions...so if this is the future...so be it...the future should be diverse but it has to be exciting which was my point about the accountant on the free trader Beowulf.
accountant.jpg
 
kafka said:
But, heck, EDG, if you want to see more accountants in space...then I am sure Mongoose can oblige. For me, I want to see adventure.

If I'm looking at a portrait of someone, I don't need adventure - I just want an illustration of what they look like. Leave the "adventure" for the action pieces.

Neither of the photos I linked to (of Villa and Mal Reynolds) scream "adventure" to me, but both give me a pretty good idea of what they both look like :).


My point exactly. Maybe you live in some sort of cave, but, I literally see hundreds of beautiful ordinary people everyday. True, I live in a major metropolitan area but reality is infinitely more beautiful than what adores the covers of fashion magazines or porn. All the more reason to "capture" it and change the context.

I see hundreds of normal-looking, ordinary people every day. Some are fat, some are thin, some are pretty, some are ugly, all are ordinary (and don't get me wrong, that's great - there's nothing wrong with "ordinary" at all). But very rarely do I see a "beautiful" person walking past.


As I said, I have nothing wrong with sensuality and sexuality...one just has to be mature about...which is where the cheaper elements of fantasy RPGs get it wrong.

I think there's a place for it, but it's not in every picture. I'd prefer functionality and verisimilitude over gratuitous sensuality. The bike-riding buxom Scout in the skintight spandex for example... she's a complete tool if she rides her bike like that. One crash and she's not only shredded her pretty outfit but also her pretty skin and flesh and bones too - kit the poor girl out in proper thick biker leathers and give her a helmet, then she won't be sorry later! :)
 
If she's got subdermal armour, I dare say she doesn't much worry about road rash.

Really, 'realistic' and 'practical' have different definitions once technology enters into the picture.

A high collar in our world is impractical. But if it's held in place with static fields - and can extend and wrap around to form an emergency helmet complete with self-contained atmosphere, it's not so impractical any more, is it?

Similarly, skin tight - or heavily revealing - clothing can still be viable, even on cold worlds, if you've got tech that keeps people warm.

It's like the Exalted pictures. Yes, they're over the top. But you have to remember, these people can kick minor gods up one side of the mountain and down the other when they're still starting out. They're pretty much going to dress however they want.

Now, my own preference runs to folks like Zoe and Kaylee - but there's room for Inara, too (oh, yes, there's room for Inara) as well as Wilma Dearing, Servalan, and Orion (or Twi'lek) dancers.
 
Stormraven said:
If she's got subdermal armour, I dare say she doesn't much worry about road rash.

Having once had a bad case of "road rash" myself, I can assure you that having armour under your skin wouldn't help much, at least on the cosmetic side. Having the skin on your arms flayed off is going to ruin anyone's day.


A high collar in our world is impractical. But if it's held in place with static fields - and can extend and wrap around to form an emergency helmet complete with self-contained atmosphere, it's not so impractical any more, is it?

Similarly, skin tight - or heavily revealing - clothing can still be viable, even on cold worlds, if you've got tech that keeps people warm.

If that's the case then (a) I want to see stats for it, (b) everyone wearing it (because they don't have much excuse not to), and (c) a written explanation in the text saying why everyone's wandering around in what to us looks like impractical-looking clothing.


It's like the Exalted pictures. Yes, they're over the top. But you have to remember, these people can kick minor gods up one side of the mountain and down the other when they're still starting out. They're pretty much going to dress however they want.

That's one rationalisation I guess, but I suspect that wasn't the real reason they commissioned the artist to draw a big-boobed anime babe barely wearing a kinky outfit.
 
Indeed, Traveller is NOT the worst of offenders!

EDG said:
I think there's a place for it [sensuality and sexuality], but it's not in every picture. I'd prefer functionality and verisimilitude over gratuitous sensuality. The bike-riding buxom Scout in the skintight spandex for example... she's a complete tool if she rides her bike like that. One crash and she's not only shredded her pretty outfit but also her pretty skin and flesh and bones too - kit the poor girl out in proper thick biker leathers and give her a helmet, then she won't be sorry later! :)

Well said, EDG. FWIW, I would not find the aforementioned illustration of a scantily-clad (or even naked) pole-dancer offensive per se. I might question the choice of “pole-dancer” to represent the class “Entertainer,” but once that choice is made, the rest follows — that’s what a woman wears in that role. What would get up my nose would be to see her (or any woman) at the controls of Free Trader Beowulf in a thong, pasties and stilettos. That would, in most cases, be inappropriate — not to mention the fact that sitting on vinyl/leather (or its Traveller-‘verse equivalent) in nowt but a thong would not be the most comfy thing to do!

Where their life circumstances allow it, women, like men, dress in clothes that are functional (appropriate to the role they are playing at that specific point in time) and comfortable (psychologically as well as physically). Most of us — again just like men — also like wearing clothes that make us feel good about ourselves. The proportion of consideration we give to each of these three factors will vary from individual to individual and occasion to occasion — and sometimes on both axes (and several others) simultaneously.

I am a high-school teacher — in front of my classes, I wear skirts, blouses and (when necessary) jackets. The materials will vary from summer to winter, but my skirts are usually below-the-knee. Yes, this is what I am expected to wear, but I also find such garb comfortable — and I like the way I look in it. By the same token, walking in the park in winter would see me in jeans, fur cap and big sweater— functional, comfy and good-looking for that situation. I would like to think that whatever technology brings — and anti-grav bra straps might be useful — I could base the choices in my Traveller wardrobe on the same three criteria.

Cheers,

Sal
 
It's also about character. If the illo is to represent some nasty fascist bastitch, the go for ugly mo'fo. If it's a smarmy charmer, then sleazy good looks are apropos (Don Johnson?). Ladies in illos will always tend to be on the cute side. That's just showbiz. After all, we rarely want to see Pat Butcher in space, do we?
 
Now that's going too far.

I really couldn't imagine anyone resembling a character from EastEnders ever having the Wanderlust necessary to become Travellers. There's something chilling about TV soap characters, particularly those built like rhinos, when they try to look sexy.

It's like cold ice in the veins. *shudders*

Put a character sketch resembling Dot Cotton or Bianca on the cover of a Traveller book, and I'd guarantee you'll see sales of that title drop like Ortillery on a high-grav vacuum world.
 
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