Women in the army

[Raphael]

Brajah:
And thanks for giving us the most funny avatar! No offense meant: I like it!

Thank you. He is Hungar the Barbarian, my own attempt at a character a la Order of The Stick. If you're not reading it, you missing the funniest damn thing on the internet for gamers.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
That's the URL for the current strip.

Raphael

 

[René]

Brajah:
And thanks for giving us the most funny avatar! No offense meant: I like it!

Thank you. He is Hungar the Barbarian, my own attempt at a character a la Order of The Stick. If you're not reading it, you missing the funniest damn thing on the internet for gamers.
http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/GiantITP/ootscript
That's the URL for the current strip.

Raphael

Cool! Have been there the last hour (or so)!

 

[Hyborian Apeman]

What I'm looking for are women who fought regularly in their tribe, army etc. Does some of the U.S. guys know how the situation with the native Americans was?

:?: on that. Despite being a shaman and about 4% native blood, I'm white in all the ways that matter. Tribal history has been obliterated by the ancestors of this country. [I'm actually the grandchild of immigrants, so it wasn't my ancestors from both sides of the tree, but I bet my Celt forebears did something equally horrible] What's left of the native tribes's true wisdom that's survived cultural annhilation and the desire to run casinos is well concealed, if it still exists.

Raven, who's not really a U.S. 'guy' 8)

Um, without changing the focus of the thread, I think Native American Culture has been fairly well preserved. Having grown up close to a reservation, and having required classes on Native American history, women did not fight as a normal part of Native American wars. This changed slightly with the advent of firearms and the "Taming of the West", but otherwise as a rule they did not fight.

 

[Raven Blackwell]

Well, perhaps so. I'm a pessimist by nature and the two reservations I've seen in my area were little more than a different kind of suburbia. Perhaps other portions of the country have fared better. All the Power I know has been taught by the spirits themselves- there were no other teachers available.

Raven

 

[ethicalsean]

The only female I can think off hand is Agrippina the Elder, Germanicus's wife. The sources say it was unusual for a woman to travel with her husband on military expedition, but she did lead fighting men a time or two. Cleopatra commanded troops too, but I wouldn't call her a great example

Certainly, if there were powerful women such as Livia and Fulvia, I don't think its too much of a stretch to have a powerful noble woman in some sort of military function. I don't think there would be women in the regular troops, but certainly Conan is filled with a few examples of powerful women on the battlefield.

 

[InsomNY]

I probably shouldn't get involved in this discussion, because (1) I haven't really done my research recently and (2) I'm at work and on deadline. But I have some thoughts on this subject.

Feudal Japan may not have used women as regular army, but it was reasonably common for female castle residents to be trained in weapons like the naginata and the bow, as well as siegecraft and logistics, to aid in defense when necessary. Some of this was undoubtedly "vanity training," more a show of dedication than a real commitment to fighting, but the example is there.

Middle Eastern women didn't fight directly, but they did occasionally follow behind the troops to finish off the wounded -- or so the story goes.

Nordic women did follow the example mentioned in the Conan RPG description of Nordheimr, in that they were expected to be able to fight and defend the home, and it wasn't unheard of for them to go to war.

According to a couple of TV documentaries I've seen (not the Ridley Scott movie), Roman-era women gladiators were not unheard of, and were as likely to be free as slaves -- not a great life, but probably more interesting than prostitution.

Women leading troops into battle, whether as a symbol or as a warrior, seems to have more precedent. In addition to Boudicca/Bodicea and Agrippina, two other very well-known examples are Elizabeth I of England, who famously rallied her troops from horseback wearing full (though probably lightweight) armor; and Joan d'Arc, whom I expect needs no description.

Lastly, I have to say the obvious -- the characterizations in REH's stories are supposed to evoke the spirit of legend, not the facts of history. If popular imagination says that women fought in such-and-such culture, I'd rather use those stories and make allowances to improve my game. It's too easy to over-apply gender stereotypes and make female PCs seem freakish.

 

[urdinaran]

There is a chapter dedicated to women serving in militaries in "The Transformation of War" by Martin Van Creveld, a very good book.

 

[Sword-dancer]

TheSarmatians or Skythe had fighting women in their tribers, also in India were such forces in the time of the Bactrian realms.

 

[René]

I read today REH's Marchers of Valhalla: the Aesir band decribed there had 1000 men and no women.

This doesn't have to be historically correct, but gives REH's view of things.

 

[Altantean DM]

The Amazons were real, not a myth. Heroditus talks about them, and there is physical evidence discovered at the site of Themiscyra.

But mostly, the women in the army were camp followers. They were poking around the army to take care of various tasks: cooking, cleaning, helping the men experience a little happiness, that sort of stuff.

 

[René]

The Amazons were real, not a myth. Heroditus talks about them, and there is physical evidence discovered at the site of Themiscyra.

There I'm more than a little skeptical.

Herodotus says also that there is a nation of men who walk on their hands and use their large feet to shade the rest of the body against the sun.
Herodotus is one of my favourite ancient Greek writers, but his work is a mixture of history AND fairy tales. Just read his ethnographical report in the fourth book and you will see what I mean...

Can you please elaborate your point about Themiscyra and give maybe some links to serious / scientific homepages?

 

[Bregales]

Amazing to read all these posts, fascinating! There was an earlier post about women gladiators, and I've also seen a Nova special on tv about an archaeological dig near Bath, England, where they had found female remains with elaborate weapons and armor, I think dated around 300 A.D.? There was also a television program on cable t.v. (History Channel I think) about the Roman Empire, which made references to women gladiators as well, as the empire fell into apogy, and the audiences' appetites became more perverted as the need for new spectacle rose to greater and greater demands (posts in another thread about mock naval battles in major arenas like the Collisseum).

While we appreciate Howard's worlds being based on ancient histories, we also appreciate the dramatic licenses he took as a fantasy writer. Therefore, the most important thing is to take what you like and use it in your game, and if you don't like something then ignore it, or draw a pencil line across the reference if you REALLY don't like it. :twisted:

Hope this helps.

 

[Damien]

I'll guess I'll chime on - since we're talking about my favourite subject (pre-Enlightenment warfare).

The concept of the 'warrior woman' is pretty similar in the real world as in Hyborea. That being - there may have been 2 or 3 cultures (if that) throughout history to make aggressive use of female warriors - and quite a few other cultures would have allowed women to fight if they were in danger themselves (i.e. the village is being attacked).

But in the general scheme of history - the amount of cultures making use of warrior women is a sliver on a pie chart.

And the concept of a matriarchal society dominated by female warriors is purely fantasy. 'The Amazons' never existed except in Greek fairy tales.

Themiscyra is an extreme example where a -few- female corpses were found with a weapon in hand, or a piece of armour still on the remains. The fact is - these women were not the majority - and were probably attempting to defend Themiscyra from utter annihilation, considering Lucullus invaded and (presumably) destroyed Themiscyra.

It should also be noted that while Herodotus (~ 480 B.C.E.) called Themiscyra Amazonian (which is where Diodorus (~ 50 B.C.E.) got the idea), other notables such as Scylax (~520 B.C.E.) note Themiscyra as Greek - and make no mention of 'warrior women' - nor did Diodorus in his writings.




In summation, female warriors are the exception, not the rule, and should probably be treated as such if you're going for a game that 'feels' historical (like I feel a Conan game should). In -most- societies, a female warrior should be looked on with surprise, perhaps even disgust in some cases.

 

[René]

Reviving an sleeping thread:

I read afew days ago a compilation of REH's stories about Agnes de Chastillon, a warrior woman during renaissance.

While it is IMO too unrealistic (and not REH at his best), it may be still be interesting - sounds like Red Sonja comes not only from REH's Sonya, but also from Agnes.

The book is named: The Sword Woman

For the content look here: http://www.howardworks.com/howard.htm

It's available at the usual used book homepages.

 

[kintire]

Conan noting that southern (Hyborean) women were soft and weak, unlike Cimmerian women who fought alongside the men. I think it's rather against the spirit of the setting to have women soldiers common & accepted in Hyborean culture armies. I'd stick to the occasional cross-dresser incognito

He is told this in Black Colossus. However, the only instance we have of a female serving as a soldier in a unit is an Aquilonian.

Aquilonia seems to be based on medieval culture, where female warriors were rare, but certainly not unheard of. Several Arabic sources remark on the western use of women in warfare, with astonishment, and there are a number of female warriors in the records. Nor were they particularly looked down on it seems: Nichola de la Haye was appointed sheriff of Lincolnshire by King John, and distinguished herself in the civil war that plagued his later reign.

 

[Aholibamah]

In a homebrew game I'm running I've depicted a small republic's militia as having women in it--however I think that this is not atypical of medieval era nations of Europe where frankly it is more a matter of survival than anything else. It seems that historically socieities with large well established permanent armies don't have women except occasionally in disguise or as part of the ruling classes. In the homebrew nation I've done however the local farmers and traders have to deal with enemy raids, bandits and the like and so the idea that anyone with willingness and ability should train with arms to be able to defend their families and community makes sense to me.