Will P&P address PL?

[Target]

I see. I believe fighters should be able to score crits more easily, since they should be able to target weak points more precisely with being so close & any ship/fighter should still be able get a crit.
With your proposed system what would a patrol need to crit a armagedon ship?

 

[Foxmeister]

I see. I believe fighters should be able to score crits more easily, since they should be able to target weak points more precisely with being so close & any ship/fighter should still be able get a crit.
With your proposed system what would a patrol need to crit a armagedon ship?

It couldn't - unless it had precise weapons in which case it could do so on a 6.

Regards,

Dave

 

[Target]

I see. I believe fighters should be able to score crits more easily, since they should be able to target weak points more precisely with being so close & any ship/fighter should still be able get a crit.
With your proposed system what would a patrol need to crit a armagedon ship?

It couldn't - unless it had precise weapons in which case it could do so on a 6.

Regards,

Dave

Not a believer in crit immunity. There is always a chance.
The thing didn't like either sytem, is it doesn't degrade, maybe if there was another threshold where the need to roll for conformation stopped, I would far more happier.They would deal with swarm fleets far better, a Ka Bin Tak would be far more viable against a horde of Vorchans.

 

[Foxmeister]

Not a believer in crit immunity. There is always a chance.
The thing didn't like either sytem, is it doesn't degrade, maybe if there was another threshold where the need to roll for conformation stopped, I would far more happier.They would deal with swarm fleets far better, a Ka Bin Tak would be far more viable against a horde of Vorchans.

Well, you could always say that it tops out at 6+. That being said, a gnat against your windscreen is never going to break it. With ACTA being D6 based, there isn't much room for granularity.

As to degrading, I don't disagree - it's picking the threshold that's the problem. If we are talking tweaks to 2e, it has got to be simple, but a 3e can go all the way.

Regards,

Dave

 

[nekomata fuyu]

No, but a pistol fired by a child would break the windscreen just as well as the same pistol fired by a wrestler. Your system falls over in that it imbues the windscreen with a magical resistence to bullets fired by children.

 

[l33tpenguin]

Not a believer in crit immunity. There is always a chance.
The thing didn't like either sytem, is it doesn't degrade, maybe if there was another threshold where the need to roll for conformation stopped, I would far more happier.They would deal with swarm fleets far better, a Ka Bin Tak would be far more viable against a horde of Vorchans.

Well, you could always say that it tops out at 6+. That being said, a gnat against your windscreen is never going to break it. With ACTA being D6 based, there isn't much room for granularity.

As to degrading, I don't disagree - it's picking the threshold that's the problem. If we are talking tweaks to 2e, it has got to be simple, but a 3e can go all the way.

Regards,

Dave

I agree with d6 being terribly limited I'd love to see 3ed in d10. Not really terrible to shift to, 6s become 9s and 10s, 5s become 7-9s, 4s are 6-8s Gives more granularity. More diversity. And 10 sided dice look cooler than 6 siders. Board games use d6, real gamers use d10!

As for gnats and windshields, a gnat armed with unidirectional pulse cannon would sure do a number on it. 1AD is the same regardless of what is firing it. Gnats also have the advantage of being able to get into your nose and eyes

 

[Foxmeister]

No, but a pistol fired by a child would break the windscreen just as well as the same pistol fired by a wrestler. Your system falls over in that it imbues the windscreen with a magical resistence to bullets fired by children.

It's called an abstraction. The assumption is that the beam on a G'Quan is going to be more "penetrating" than one on a Ka'Toc, to a level more than AD in and of itself would indicate (4dDD vs 2dDD), so I'm making the G'Quan inherently tougher against the Ka'Toc, but not against ships of similar or greater class.

Regards,

Dave

 

[l33tpenguin]

No, but a pistol fired by a child would break the windscreen just as well as the same pistol fired by a wrestler. Your system falls over in that it imbues the windscreen with a magical resistence to bullets fired by children.

It's called an abstraction. The assumption is that the beam on a G'Quan is going to be more "penetrating" than one on a Ka'Toc, to a level more than AD in and of itself would indicate (4dDD vs 2dDD), so I'm making the G'Quan inherently tougher against the Ka'Toc, but not against ships of similar or greater class.

Regards,

Dave

The problem there is that there is nothing else to indicate the beam is any better other than the AD. AD is exactly what make weapons in ACtA deadly, along with additional traits. Its the reason that fighters only have a whooping 1 AD, they have, comparativly, weak weapons. Its why the 'weak' trait exists. A 2AD, DD, P, TL weapon should have the exact same results if it is mounted on a raid ship or armageddon ship. The advantage the big ships have is they do mount more guns with more AD. You aren't going to find a skirmish ship with an 8 AD, quad damage, precise beam. If you do, you should only ever field it regardless of the size of the fight!

 

[katadder]

and again that wouldnt work unless both ships had the same AD in the same weapon.
so if they were both 2AD weapons you could have a differance in crit save etc.
the fact that a Gquan gets more AD than a ka'toc is representative of its weapons being heavier. having more AD in itself increases your chances of crits due to rolling more dice.
also surviving crits is more based on damage/crew.

to use a system with differant saves depending on size of ships would mean a weapon has to have the same stats no matter what ship its on and all ships have to have the same dam/crew.

 

[nekomata fuyu]

and again that wouldnt work unless both ships had the same AD in the same weapon.
so if they were both 2AD weapons you could have a differance in crit save etc.
the fact that a Gquan gets more AD than a ka'toc is representative of its weapons being heavier. having more AD in itself increases your chances of crits due to rolling more dice.
also surviving crits is more based on damage/crew.

to use a system with differant saves depending on size of ships would mean a weapon has to have the same stats no matter what ship its on and all ships have to have the same dam/crew.

Sounds like you're now arguing against the crit save being dependant on the PL of the firing ship. After all, the G'Quan's weapons being heavier and it having more of a chance to cause crits than a Ka'Toc is already taken into account by the having more AD.
The problem is that when they're firing on an Omega and an Olympus, the Omega can easily be critted out of the game whilst it's still only lightly damaged, whilst the Olympus is pretty much dead before that happens anyway.

 

[katadder]

I have always argued against a crit save for ships of any size.
redundancy I can see in bigger ships, so being able to ignore the effects of 2-3 crits is fair enough (still take damage as things blow up but ignore the effect by having backups) but the save I am and always was against.

 

[silashand]

but the save I am and always was against.

That's what the save is meant to represent in game terms as an easy to use and implement mechanism rather than adding more things to keep track of as damage is accrued.

Cheers, Gary

 

[katadder]

except it doesnt work.
how can a pulse cannon from a hyperion have less chance of doing a crit than a pulse cannon from a warlock?
its the same weapon, its just on a differant ship.

the chance of crits is already built into the system for bigger ships v smaller by the fact they have more AD, and they have more damage to survive them too.

 

[Target]

On the d10 thing, we went d12 for a while so we balance the stats easier, balanced things far more but the time taken up rolling them is what put us off it. Went back to d6. It's far simplier & faster.

Back on the redundancy thing
Here's the table i did ease of reference.
If you are the same level or higher no need to roll to confirm the crit
-1 level 2+
-2 level 3+
-3 level 4+
-4 level 5+
-5 level 6+
A patrol ship would need roll a 6 to confirm a crit vs Armagedon & a raid would need 4+.
I'd say fighters couldn't go above 4+ as they are a bit more pinpoint than ships.
The advantages to this sort of crit saving is that it evens up Lots of small ships vs 1 big one & it's relatively simple. The Horde will still be able to crits but just nowhere as often.
Let say we gave this ability till 25% of the ships hits were depleted & then the crit confirming was gone to show the armour plating had reduced it's effectivness, still givin it's high hull score but the vital systems are far easier to hit.
Just think of it as combination of Bulk , Armour & even AD shows the power of the weapon just that little ships guns just mightn't be as effective as on a bigger ship.
This would help a long way, & it's not like the bigger ship is immune, it's just it would be in the fight longer in operational state. The hardest part would decideding where the thresholds would be.
The Haven could still inflict some nasty stuff on the Ka Bin Tak but a lot more unlikely.
I personaly think something like this would a reasonable fix.

 

[katadder]

and again, why? the weapons are just as likely to cause a crit fired by a small ship as by a big ship.
as has been pointed out before, kid with gun shoots you or adult with same gun shoots you = same effect.

 

[l33tpenguin]

and again, why? the weapons are just as likely to cause a crit fired by a small ship as by a big ship.
as has been pointed out before, kid with gun shoots you or adult with same gun shoots you = same effect.

Kid with a unidirectional pulse cannon sounds cooler

 

[katadder]

true that works

 

[l33tpenguin]

true that works

And the result is the same! Only cooler

 

[nekomata fuyu]

except it doesnt work.
how can a pulse cannon from a hyperion have less chance of doing a crit than a pulse cannon from a warlock?
its the same weapon, its just on a differant ship.

And this has what to do with saves exactly? All you're saying here is to not have it dependant on the PL of the firing ship.

the chance of crits is already built into the system for bigger ships v smaller by the fact they have more AD, and they have more damage to survive them too.

Yes and no. The chance of a ship causing crits is already taken into account by the greater number of AD as you say.
The chance of a ship resisting crits is not particularly boosted by increases in damage however. This is the entire problem. It doesn't matter how many damage points the ship starts with, the same hit has the same chance of taking out an entire weapons arc, or shut down the engines or one of many other effects. In fact, because the larger ships tend to be slower, they tend to be hit harder by the engine crits, which can wipe out most of their movement with the same result that a small ship would mostly ignore.
To go back to the gun analogy, a wrestler who's shot in the leg with a gun should have more chance of being able to walk afterwards than the kid who's shot in the leg with the same gun.


So, why should a larger ship be so much more vulnerable to crits?
The question then of if the durability should be in the form of ignoring the first X crits or in the form of a save is a separate matter. I support the save as it's not an all then nothing approach and is a lot more natural. That it also doesn't introduce even more bookkeeping is just a bonus (albeit a big bonus).

 

[katadder]

except the save is modified by what size ship is shooting at you.
whereas the redundancy makes up for the fact that bigger ships have more redundant systems, but allows any size ship with the same weapon to cause the crit in the 1st place.

the wrestler shot in the leg is more likely to live and not die from shock than the kid but if they survive then both is as likely to walk.
the same can be said of crits, the big ship is more likely to survive a crits damage, but if either ship survives they can both carry on.
yes the chance of resisting crits is not taken into effect, as the crit is the same to either ship, however the big ship is more likely to survive and repair that crit.

the save really doesnt work unless every ship using the same weapon has the same AD for that weapon.
currently the kid has a rifle set on single shot whilst the wrestler is firing bursts. which is how ACTA works, the smaller ships have less AD.