Will Mongoose be fixing Book 17 ?
- Thread starter Oiseau
- Start date
Hi guys, I can ensure you that Joe Dever reduced the CS (and sometimes EP) of most of the monsters of this gamebook (except 2 of them: the Deathlord and his minion Tagazin, because they are really powerful foes), so that it will be easier to arrive in front of the Deathlord.
My own opinion regarding Ixiataaga: he's probably not Undead, even if he looks. He's described in the gamebook as a "powerful entity", a "Lieutenant of Agarash", i.e. something created by Agarash like Shoongath in Glory and Greed and even more powerful than a Demonlord like Tagazin. Ixiataaga is a Champion of Naar, a sort of Demigod like a Darklord (he was feared by all of them), and unfortunately he cannot be considered in my view as a "banal" Undead.
-V. Lazzari
My own opinion regarding Ixiataaga: he's probably not Undead, even if he looks. He's described in the gamebook as a "powerful entity", a "Lieutenant of Agarash", i.e. something created by Agarash like Shoongath in Glory and Greed and even more powerful than a Demonlord like Tagazin. Ixiataaga is a Champion of Naar, a sort of Demigod like a Darklord (he was feared by all of them), and unfortunately he cannot be considered in my view as a "banal" Undead.
-V. Lazzari
SnowShadow
Mongoose
I agree that Tagazin is a demon and not undead and therefore the Douple EP bonus from Sommerswerd/Dessi Stone does not apply but I struggle to understand how anyone can think the Ixian Deathlord Ixiataaga is not undead. ZuTAAGon is Undead in Giak. The goat-skull and funereal robe and stench of death and corruption on his first appearance imply Undead too.
In 'The Story so Far' section Rimoah says "they entered Xaagon and found the Deathlord's tomb", well if he is alive how can he have a tomb? It would say 'prison' or something else surely if he was alive whilst trapped.
Banedon Section 57: "If you are to defeat the Deathlord of Ixia and his minions you will need a weapon of exceptional power - a weapon capable of destroying that which is already dead."
'AND his minions' implies Ixiataaga and his army are BOTH undead when taken in context with the rest of the sentence, otherwise Banedon should say "If you are to defeat the Deathlord of Ixia's minions..." instead.
I take your point about being Agarash's lieutenant but Kekataag the Avenger is undead and one of Naar's champions - plus he has Taag in his name too. It would be very helpful if the new version could clear this up but in the meantime I will assume Ixiataaga is Undead, not banal just free-willed.
In 'The Story so Far' section Rimoah says "they entered Xaagon and found the Deathlord's tomb", well if he is alive how can he have a tomb? It would say 'prison' or something else surely if he was alive whilst trapped.
Banedon Section 57: "If you are to defeat the Deathlord of Ixia and his minions you will need a weapon of exceptional power - a weapon capable of destroying that which is already dead."
'AND his minions' implies Ixiataaga and his army are BOTH undead when taken in context with the rest of the sentence, otherwise Banedon should say "If you are to defeat the Deathlord of Ixia's minions..." instead.
I take your point about being Agarash's lieutenant but Kekataag the Avenger is undead and one of Naar's champions - plus he has Taag in his name too. It would be very helpful if the new version could clear this up but in the meantime I will assume Ixiataaga is Undead, not banal just free-willed.
SnowShadow
Mongoose
Spoiler - the Deathlord's minions convert Drakkarim & Lencians, etc. into Undead creatures - it just doesn't make sense for him to be a living being declaring war on all living beings via his Undead servants (they would want him destroyed too, could make interesting story!).
Well, "Taag" means "Kill" and concretely Ixiataaga probably means "Killer of Ixia"... Would not it mean that he was the cause of the death of the nation of Ixia during the Age of Eternal Night, instead of being something dead himself? The only event for which Ixiataaga is known is the destruction of the Ixians. I even suppose his name is in fact the name the Darklords gave him when they arrived in Magnamund, because as you pointed out, this name is a Giak name and the Giak were created during the Age of the Black Moon (Giak is very different from the Dark Tongue spoken by the Darklords themselves of from the Ul-Naarvash spoken by Agarash and his lieutenants), far later the first defeat of the Deathlord.SnowShadow said:
You got the point, a tomb instead of a prison. But it is never mentioned that the Deathlord was killed by the Elder Magi: he was just "defeated", "weakened" and "imprisoned".SnowShadow said:
Well, the Darklords are not undead and you also need a weapon of exceptional power to kill them. The Sommerswerd can destroy Undead but it can also destroy Darklords. And the word "BOTH" was not used in the sentence you pointed out, which can mean (too) that you need a weapon of power to destroy some undead, and also something far more powerful.SnowShadow said:
In fact, if you don't have the Sommerswerd, you can fail to find the Powerspike (if you reach section 33). And the Dessi stone alone will not save you against the Deathlord, whereas it can kill undead beings...
However I admit that the sentence "a weapon capable of destroying that which is already dead" may imply that he's undead too, I do not contest it.
You got that point. I'm now more uncertain than before your explanationsSnowShadow said:
. Thank you for opening my mind!SnowShadow
Mongoose
It's certainly interesting listening to your ideas. As far as I know it does not anywhere literally state 'Ixiataaga is Undead'. I think it strongly implies it but you are correct it doesn't say it.
My other thought is on the use of Lord. Ixiataaga is described as a Deathlord; now this does not state that he is Undead of course but let's look at Tagazin. Tagazin is described as a Demonlord - not because he is a Lord ruling over demons, he is a demon who has received that title: Tagazin is more servant than ruler when he appears in the books - serving Roark and Ixiataaga for example. So, similarly, a Deathlord doesn't necessarily mean a Lord ruling over the dead (that's just a coincidence) he IS a Dead-Lord or Undead ruler otherwise why isn't he also called a Demonlord? Well that's my interpretation anyway. Would help if Joe/Mongoose printed a definitive answer, like 'remember Sommerswerd's bonus to Undead' in the combat section.
If he isn't Undead then describing him in a funereal robe with skeletal arms, goat-skull face and stench of death/decay just makes it more confusing.
It really does come down to interpretation. Looking forward to what Mongoose does with the story - thanks for a fascinating discussion Zorkaan.
My other thought is on the use of Lord. Ixiataaga is described as a Deathlord; now this does not state that he is Undead of course but let's look at Tagazin. Tagazin is described as a Demonlord - not because he is a Lord ruling over demons, he is a demon who has received that title: Tagazin is more servant than ruler when he appears in the books - serving Roark and Ixiataaga for example. So, similarly, a Deathlord doesn't necessarily mean a Lord ruling over the dead (that's just a coincidence) he IS a Dead-Lord or Undead ruler otherwise why isn't he also called a Demonlord? Well that's my interpretation anyway. Would help if Joe/Mongoose printed a definitive answer, like 'remember Sommerswerd's bonus to Undead' in the combat section.
If he isn't Undead then describing him in a funereal robe with skeletal arms, goat-skull face and stench of death/decay just makes it more confusing.
It really does come down to interpretation. Looking forward to what Mongoose does with the story - thanks for a fascinating discussion Zorkaan.
Very nicely spotted! In my view, "Demonlord" is synonym of what the Magnamund Bestiary defined under the name of Greater Demon. As you stated, not a Demon ruling over other demons, but a very powerful Demon. Following this idea, Ixiataaga could be a very powerful undead. But I don't think so.SnowShadow said:
Indeed, the "power of death" is often mentioned in the gamebooks. For example, in the Magnamund Companion, the power of death is synonym of power of Darkness, in the war between Light (= life) and Darkness (= Death). In LW5, Darklord Haakon (who's not an undead) acts as follow to create a Dhorgaan (section 253): "A grey mist issues forth from the Darklord's mouth, floating towards the core of this horror, infusing it with the power of death.". In LW13 (section 200), the Cenerese worship the power of Death. In LW3 (section 53), Vonotar is told to have coveted the power of death offered by the Darklords... There is also a Deathstaff that had to be initially used to resurrect Vashna. Thus the power of Death is a real magical energy in Aon, and thus, in my view, a Deathlord is more a master of this power than a powerful undead himself (that's only my opinion, I've no definitive answer!).
Last detail: August would explain this better than me, but when he created his lieutenants (his children), Agarash offered them a fragment of his own power. As Agarash is told in the Magnamund Companion to have "raised the dead to do his bidding", we can suppose he was also a sort of Deathlord, and offered his power over death to his creation, Ixiataaga.
But evil is confusingSnowShadow said:
. I agree on that point: he looks like an undead!Thank you too, SnowShadow! That's a pleasure to have such discussionsSnowShadow said:
!SnowShadow
Mongoose
I agree about Death being a magic power - the books are rife with quotes where the magic of Naar is described as Necromancy/the users Necromancers. You certainly have given food for thought and I am now uncertain as to my initial assumption that Ixiataaga was 'obviously' Undead!
I tell you what, it certainly makes for a great story...
Banedon:Okay Wolf, your next opponent is Deathlord Ixiataaga, a goat-skulled Masterlord of the Undead, wears a funereal robe, stench of death and decay all around, he has an army of Undead, has lived for 10,000 years and got released from his tomb by an Ixian Elder using the Deathstaff.
Lone Wolf:Aha! So he's Undead then!
Banedon:Whatever gave you that idea?
I can see it now, the equivalent of a party of adventurers chasing after a suspected Werewolf armed with wolfsbane and silver only to find it is a vampire in wolf-form: So Lone Wolf raises his trusty Sommerswerd with a smirk only to find it flickering like a candle and dealing a mere scratch of a blow.
"Damn - not Undead! Double-damn, I owe Banedon a dozen Gold Crowns..." the Grand Master's final words.
There is precious little that the forces of Good know about Ixiataaga so they could easily assume him to be Undead when in fact he isn't. I am no wiser but at least more informed.
From a logic point of view I always assumed that Sommerswerd's Undead Bonus applied mainly because the fight was so hard! If the stats have indeed been revised then I am quite happy not to use the double damage unless it specifically states Ixiataaga IS Undead. That would be just like a Champion of Naar to have everyone assume he is one thing when in fact he is something else!
I tell you what, it certainly makes for a great story...
Banedon:Okay Wolf, your next opponent is Deathlord Ixiataaga, a goat-skulled Masterlord of the Undead, wears a funereal robe, stench of death and decay all around, he has an army of Undead, has lived for 10,000 years and got released from his tomb by an Ixian Elder using the Deathstaff.
Lone Wolf:Aha! So he's Undead then!
Banedon:Whatever gave you that idea?
I can see it now, the equivalent of a party of adventurers chasing after a suspected Werewolf armed with wolfsbane and silver only to find it is a vampire in wolf-form: So Lone Wolf raises his trusty Sommerswerd with a smirk only to find it flickering like a candle and dealing a mere scratch of a blow.
"Damn - not Undead! Double-damn, I owe Banedon a dozen Gold Crowns..." the Grand Master's final words.
There is precious little that the forces of Good know about Ixiataaga so they could easily assume him to be Undead when in fact he isn't. I am no wiser but at least more informed.
From a logic point of view I always assumed that Sommerswerd's Undead Bonus applied mainly because the fight was so hard! If the stats have indeed been revised then I am quite happy not to use the double damage unless it specifically states Ixiataaga IS Undead. That would be just like a Champion of Naar to have everyone assume he is one thing when in fact he is something else!
SnowShadow
Mongoose
SnowShadow said:
Talk about shooting my own argument in the foot! "Lived" = Life. Should have put 'existed' if talking about Undead. I think I am coming around to your way of thinking Zorkaan!
Excellent story, I love it :lol: ! Poor Lone Wolf...
Seriously, I'm now really unsure about the nature of Ixiataaga. I admit he can be undead, but I'm still unsure.
Other element: by the same token, do you think that Darklords Kraagenskûl and Haakon are undead too? Without mentioning the counless number of undead (from zombies to Vordak and Helghast) that they control and their long lifespan of nearly 2000 years, in LW12, Darklord Kraagenskûl is described as "corpse-like", with "a loose grey robe shrouding his skeletal frame", and in LW5, when Haakon attacks Lone Wolf, "The stench of death and decay fills your nostrils".
Seriously, I'm now really unsure about the nature of Ixiataaga. I admit he can be undead, but I'm still unsure.
Other element: by the same token, do you think that Darklords Kraagenskûl and Haakon are undead too? Without mentioning the counless number of undead (from zombies to Vordak and Helghast) that they control and their long lifespan of nearly 2000 years, in LW12, Darklord Kraagenskûl is described as "corpse-like", with "a loose grey robe shrouding his skeletal frame", and in LW5, when Haakon attacks Lone Wolf, "The stench of death and decay fills your nostrils".
SnowShadow
Mongoose
No I don't think the Darklords are Undead, the Spirit of Vashna trapped in Maakengotge perhaps but not the other 19. For what it is worth I don't think of them as demons either. If nothing else at no point using the Sommerswerd are you told you inflict double damage against any Darklord.
SnowShadow
Mongoose
The Darklords 'breathe' therfore they cannot be Undead. That is the reason why they turned the Darklands into wasteland and that is why they are so weak outside the Darklands. They are not Undead.
Regarding whether Ixitaaga is undead, the project aon errata notes seem to think so - taken from their site:
so: According to Mongoose Publishing's Lone Wolf, The Roleplaying Game ((c) 2004): "As trapped by the wave of unlife as his people, Ixiataaga has researched the lore of death and magic for ten millennia." This indicates that Deathlord Ixiataaga is indeed undead, so remember that you inflict double ENDURANCE point losses against him.]
I usually opt for the conservative interpretation, but if it is true his CS remains at 60, it will be REALLY hard for anyone without the sommerswerd. Without kagonite chainmail or alether / adgana I make the maximum CS in book 17 to be a mere 53 (with kaisurge), giving a horrific -7/-8 combat ratio.
so: According to Mongoose Publishing's Lone Wolf, The Roleplaying Game ((c) 2004): "As trapped by the wave of unlife as his people, Ixiataaga has researched the lore of death and magic for ten millennia." This indicates that Deathlord Ixiataaga is indeed undead, so remember that you inflict double ENDURANCE point losses against him.]
I usually opt for the conservative interpretation, but if it is true his CS remains at 60, it will be REALLY hard for anyone without the sommerswerd. Without kagonite chainmail or alether / adgana I make the maximum CS in book 17 to be a mere 53 (with kaisurge), giving a horrific -7/-8 combat ratio.
Thanks for your input Vincent, are you writing the mini-adventure?
Across the board CS reductions would help, OR at least some indication that lone wolf can use the sommerswerd in certain situations. I flicked through the book the other day and it seemed that regular enemies had between 48 and 52 CS - still challenging for a LW veteran with max CS to fight, but with the -8 penalty from not having the sommerswerd exceptionally hard.
Across the board CS reductions would help, OR at least some indication that lone wolf can use the sommerswerd in certain situations. I flicked through the book the other day and it seemed that regular enemies had between 48 and 52 CS - still challenging for a LW veteran with max CS to fight, but with the -8 penalty from not having the sommerswerd exceptionally hard.
SnowShadow
Mongoose
The Wolf said:I wrote the bonus adventure for Book 17. It should be an interesting one as well
*Excited*
I like the Mongoose cover for Bk17, although I could be convinced that Ixiataaga is a demonic kind of opponent by those wonderful twisted horns. So I'll stick with Ixiataaga = Undead.
As for reducing the stats of lesser opponents, I'm not convinced it makes enough of a difference but I have looked back through my 'saved games' and I am only at half-EP for both the Tagazin fights and the one against Ixiataaga so will just have to wait and see, here's hoping.
I confirm, this bonus adventure by Wolfy holds a few surprises in store!
I was only an humble editor.
Drake_NZ, many regular enemies will have reduced CS (and sometimes EP), but we have to keep in mind than the undead creatures of the Deathlord are far stronger than the creatures of the Darklands. Thus this book will be easier but still hard.
For Ixiataaga: the comparison with the Darklords was just to emphasize that "corpse-like", "controlling undead", "stench of death", "long lifespan" were not necessarily associated with undead when we consider powerful entities of Magnamund, even if other characters can allow to discriminate the undead, like breath (very good point, SnowShadow, I don't remember if we can check in the gamebook whether Ixiataaga breathes). I admit that the sentence of the first LW RPG is clear about the fact that Ixiataaga is sustained by unlife, nicely spotted Drake_NZ! However, I think I remember that this book did not mention that Ixiataaga was lieutenant to Agarash, sent by his master to conquer Northern Magnamund , and stated instead that Ixitaaga had always lived in Ixia, which I do not think to be congruent with LW17 (but please correct me if I'm wrong!).
I was only an humble editor.
Drake_NZ, many regular enemies will have reduced CS (and sometimes EP), but we have to keep in mind than the undead creatures of the Deathlord are far stronger than the creatures of the Darklands. Thus this book will be easier but still hard.
For Ixiataaga: the comparison with the Darklords was just to emphasize that "corpse-like", "controlling undead", "stench of death", "long lifespan" were not necessarily associated with undead when we consider powerful entities of Magnamund, even if other characters can allow to discriminate the undead, like breath
(very good point, SnowShadow, I don't remember if we can check in the gamebook whether Ixiataaga breathes). I admit that the sentence of the first LW RPG is clear about the fact that Ixiataaga is sustained by unlife, nicely spotted Drake_NZ! However, I think I remember that this book did not mention that Ixiataaga was lieutenant to Agarash, sent by his master to conquer Northern Magnamund , and stated instead that Ixitaaga had always lived in Ixia, which I do not think to be congruent with LW17 (but please correct me if I'm wrong!).SnowShadow
Mongoose
The thing is, with Kekataag the Avenger being Undead it isn't inconceivable for Naar to have another champion that is also Undead. I've always thought of Ixiataaga as a bit of a wildcard anyway following his own agenda/enslaving ALL living creatures - drakkarim & lencian alike. I like the fact that not all of Naar's chmpions 'play nicely' together: Naar keeps them on their toes. Being Undead and therefore different, Ixiataaga is a rogue champion doing his master's bidding in his own way at odds with the 'living' champions like the dragons, demons & darklords (Kekeataag meanwhile has 'sold out' his undead status serving Naar directly).
I certainly don't remember anything about Ixiataaga's breath, I'm sure if I'd seen that my opinion would be changed.
Interesting ideas.
I certainly don't remember anything about Ixiataaga's breath, I'm sure if I'd seen that my opinion would be changed.
Interesting ideas.
I like your view: yes, the champions of Naar do not always work together (Ixiataaga vs Darklords, Shog'Ash versus Darklords of Gournen, Undead Agarashi controlled by the Cenerese, Drakkarim Undead controlled by Ixitaaga, Black Zakhan vs Shasarak during the Battle of Tentarium... Renegade Cenerese of Mogaruith like Kezoor...) and have their own agendas, that's a characteristics of evil in my view.
For the breath of Ixiataaga: he's able to shout, would he have thus vocal cords? But it must surely be a magical sound...
For the breath of Ixiataaga: he's able to shout, would he have thus vocal cords? But it must surely be a magical sound...
SnowShadow
Mongoose
"Is the enemy of my enemy my friend or my enemy" & "Adversity makes strange bedfellows"
That's when the best Roleplaying happens.
That's when the best Roleplaying happens.
