Why so many rules books? - I cant cope.

[Sylvre Phire]

To qualify my statements, I'm a fan of all versions of Traveller and my current project is a MGT one.

So am I. That being said, let's get down to the nitty gritty of this bit of the discussion.

Why must Traveller fans continue to do this? My forum can beat up your forum? My version of Traveller can beat up your version of Traveller? :roll:

I don't know, how long is a piece of string? How many licks does it take to reach the Tootsie Roll center of a Tootsie Pop without biting? :roll:

To address your first question, it's the same debate ad nauseam throughout the hobby - Why do so many people feel the need to come down off their high horses long enough to say, "Verily I say unto you, your game sucketh!"?

More to the point, what I'm getting at isn't so much a matter of "superior" or "inferior" editions of Traveller as it is the difference between healthy and toxic communities. CotI? Toxic, definitely toxic. Bad moderation, bad attitudes, and all around bad reputation for more reasons than just the first two I listed. That's why we see more MGT posts here and on sfrpg.org.uk than over there.

Grandfather's Scales, I even see more MGT posts on RPGNet - of all places - than I do on CotI. And that's not counting Matt's promotional posts over on CotI.

Did some stats on the last 24 hours within the MGT Traveller forums vs. CotI:

MGT 63 posts in 18 threads. 2 Users currently online.
CotI 43 posts in 17 threads. 23 Users currently online.

Unfortunately, stats within a single 24 hour period on a forum are pretty much meaningless. Every forum has its high and low traffic days. Case in point: RPGNet's forums pretty much shut down on Saturday nights because everybody except the ill, working, or terminally bored are either out gaming or doing something else.

Additionally, I can honestly and truthfully say that I can go to CotI on any three days during the week and more often hear crickets than hear anyone discussing specifically MGT over there. Finally, simply having users online doesn't necessarily mean they're posting. It just means they're online. They could be reading, editing a post, posting, or they could have just left their keyboard for a bathroom break. Unless you go through the profile of each user online, you can't prove that all 23 are actively posting on the forum.

Throwing names such as "dilapidated" and "lonely" isn't exactly factual unless the same title applies to our forums here also?

The whole thing was a jokeful jibe. Yeah, I know I didn't slap a smiley on it, but it was a joke. To be brutally honest, though, the toxic nature of CotI does indeed give that forum a feeling as I described it - lonely and dilapidated.

If someone has something good to say about MGT and they post their thoughts over there, the same old insults and arguments get trotted out, the strawmen get thrown up into place, and the safeties come off the flamethrowers. In a sense, it gives the whole place a tired feeling and leads many of us to ask, "Why bother posting there?"

That's the long and short of it from my end of the rope.

Pax et bonum,

Dale

 

[Dark Lord Skippy]

Anyway Ive had it with Mongoose I just dont think you need all this variation. I am going back to the Classic Traveller books. I will wait to see what T5 has in store instead.

Um.... you ARE aware that there were tons of Classic Traveller books as well, right? There were 3 books in the original set alone....

Sorry, I dont mean to pile on (Ok..maybe I do...) but I'm sitting at my computer within arm's length of a massive shelf of Classic Traveller rules, modules, and sourcebook and am totally mystified by this statement.

 

[Treebore]

Anyway Ive had it with Mongoose I just dont think you need all this variation. I am going back to the Classic Traveller books. I will wait to see what T5 has in store instead.

Um.... you ARE aware that there were tons of Classic Traveller books as well, right? There were 3 books in the original set alone....

Sorry, I dont mean to pile own (Ok..maybe I do...) but I'm sitting at my computer within arm's length of a massive shelf of Classic Traveller rules, modules, and sourcebook and am totally mystified by this statement.

Now that I have thought about it some more I think what they are saying is that there is just so much more to Traveller now, than in the old days, in just one of the books. So he liked, and found it easier, to just stay relatively simple and basic with the old Classic books than he can with the new books simply because there is so much that would have to be ignored to be that simple and basic.

Which I completely understand, because I ignore 90% of what is in the books as a whole when I run my games. The only book I use even more than half of is the Core book, the rest (outside of equipment/ships) are lucky if I use a page or 3 for a given game I run, depending on concept, careers used, etc....

So it would be much simpler to just use the old Classic Books. Not to mention appear to be much less intimidating to new players.

 

[Geirunni]

Reading this forum has, like others here have already pointed out, made me remember all the other times this situation cropped up.....

I remember when MT came out, people screamed it was too complicated and ran back to CT....

When TNE came out, someone had to make a public announcement that it was garbage and they were going back to CT.....

T4 made its début. Again, there was someone who had to make the cookie-cutter response that it was a waste of time and they were running back to CT.....

T20 and GURPS Traveller made their entrances in the RPG world. More accusations of game heresy were proclaimed, along with their loudly-induced announcement that they were running back to CT.......

I guess what I am trying to say is this: To anyone out there who is using these or any other forum to make cheap announcements about how good CT was and how rotten <<<FILL IN OTHER TRAVELLER VERSION HERE>> is, WE DON'T CARE! DEAL WITH THIS!! If you don't want to move on, just make your choice and leave us alone about your unwanted opinions.

My Cr. 0.02 worth.......

 

[rust]

It really does not happen that often that someone complains that there is
too much stuff for his favourite hobby to cope with. :lol:

Really, what are these cruel people at Mongoose thinking, always scribb-
ling and scribbling more Traveller material, instead of stopping after the
core rules - do they not realize how dangerous it is to overload the fan
community with all those rules and equipment and all that ? :shock:

 

[artteach]

Talking about all the Travellers reminded me that each version has something to give.

I started with the Classic Traveller starter set. Instead of the LBB, I first had the big box of black books. Of all the versions, it had the illustrations that just caught my attention. Classic Traveller was so different from other RPGs and the character creation, starship construction, and setting is so good it is a testimate to it's greatness that people still run back to it. You hear DnD guys argue 2e,3e,or 4e but noone says,"Hey, I'm going back to the basic set."

GURPS books are the best to just pick up and read. The fluff in the GURPS books is second to none. Not a fan or playing GURPS, but I am a fan of the books.

MegaTraveller never really felt like Traveller to me. It also suffered from the bad 90's comic/ Rob Liefield/magna look.

T20 just had a comfortable feel being a guy and group who play alot of DnD. Again it didn't feel like Traveller, but it is still alot of fun and a good way to pull D20 guys in.

Mongoose Traveller has combine the classic rules, with some pretty good fluff, and some nice illustrations. I pull out my old JTAS books and can toss in classic elements without alot of work, but it still tweaked a few things. I think I like mongoose because it is pretty much CT and if it ain't broke don't fix it!

 

[serene_muse]

So it would be much simpler to just use the old Classic Books. Not to mention appear to be much less intimidating to new players.

Whatever works for your game cool. For me I'd find Classic Traveller too all over the place and requiring houserules and/or slapping in 4+ books just to even get close to what I use from MGT core that I'd just use it instead. A simple task system instead of tons of DMs, more careers from these three books and several articles, weapons and equipment from loads of sources, ship combat from there, vehicle combat from over there, more ships from this, and so forth. That and CT's art and layout would tend to drive away most new players these days, though MGT core isn't much better in this regard.

Marc Miller's Traveller core book *almost* achieved (except not ) what I want out of a single simple complete Traveller corebook, T20 sorta did, but, again for me, MGT does.

I'm somewhat surprised there really have been *no* homebrewed CT+, MT+ or Frankenstein fanmade Travellers released taking and running with the Mongoose SRD the way there have been with the D&D Retroclones. I really was expecting to see a striped down MGT beefed up with CT houserules and complete in 1 (or 3) PDFs ala Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Labyrinth Lord, Basic Fantasy and the rest. Having all the previous Traveller editions still in print or on PDF likely is a key factor but still. (shrugs)

 

[dmccoy1693]

Yea the reason for the retroclones of D&D is because you can't purchase the real thing anymore (except from ebay). Traveller (as long as I have been following the game) have never been out of print (if you count PDF as not being OOP).

But yea if you prefer one version of Traveller over another, good. Be it CT, T20, MGT, MT, T4, or whatever. Personally MGT is the way to go for me; you know what version is most fun for you. And if you use a rule or a vehicle from a different version (like giant mechs, looking innocent), then all the better for your game. We're all here to have fun.

 

[Sturn]

Additionally, I can honestly and truthfully say that I can go to CotI on any three days during the week and more often hear crickets than hear anyone discussing specifically MGT over there.

Of course the MGT Forum is going to have more discussions on MGT then a more generic Traveller forum. I won't argue with that. I'm a CotI member, but I understandably come here to discuss MGT. About the only discussion "specifically MGT" at CotI is understandably going to be it's relation to the classic versions of Traveller. If I said, "I hear crickets on the MGT forum about CT", I would understandably get beat with a verbal bat by members here - I would join in on myself as a MGT member and fan.

In my opinion CotI has grown into a generic Traveller forum for CT and its direct descendants (a.i. you don't find much Gurps Traveller discussion there either, go to the Steven Jackson forums if you don't want to hear crickets). CT, MT,TNE, T4, T5 are the primary topics of discussion at CotI. T20 from time to time also but I think only due to the forum's history. For many of these versions, CotI seems to be the "unofficially official" forum remaining for discussion. Some "officialness" comes from past Traveller authors of these versions frequenting there, direct connections of Marc Miller to some members, etc.

Unfortunately, stats within a single 24 hour period on a forum are pretty much meaningless. Every forum has its high and low traffic days.

I didn't want to count stats for a week so stopped at a day to try to prove my point. Even so you must admit the figures were in the same ballpark. It was 63 vs. 43 posts, not something like 200 vs. 10. Please go ahead and count up a week's stats if you think the two forums won't still be within the same range. My money is also on MGT, but it won't be enough difference to call one forum active and the other, "lonely and dilapidated".

To be brutally honest, though, the toxic nature of CotI does indeed give that forum a feeling as I described it - lonely and dilapidated.

Indeed? Everyone of course is going to have a broad range of feelings on this. Having been a member (just) of both forums for years, I can honestly (again) say there isn't much difference to me in the civlity of the two forums. Both have been vexed with irrate members. Both, like most any gaming forum, have discussions go off the deep end.

"Pax et bonum" along with "toxic", "lonely", "dilapidated"? :wink:

- multiple smiley faces to give undeniable evidence that I intend this as a civil discussion between Traveller fans and not troll baiting.

 

[rust]

Well, I have to agree with Sylvre Phire on this one. I left "the other fo-
rum" twice for several months and then finally for good because the dis-
cussion on its Mongoose Traveller forum was quite the opposite of civil
and polite.

 

[Treebore]

Well, I have to agree with Sylvre Phire on this one. I left "the other fo-
rum" twice for several months and then finally for good because the dis-
cussion on its Mongoose Traveller forum was quite the opposite of civil
and polite.

Like I said earlier, I have not been to "the other forum" for several years myself, due to the vitriolic rudeness I saw occur as soon as anyone said anything "not allowed". A good friend of mine tried to run an online game last year with several members from that board, it crashed and burned in two or three weeks. All because my friend did not follow the books with the religious zealotry they demanded. They are why I refer to needing to know how many moons, precisely, a given planet has. The whole experience was bad for my friend and I am still trying to get him to try Traveller again, but it looks like I am losing him to CORTEX.

So yeah, I have no intention of going back to those boards again any time soon.

 

[Sylvre Phire]

Of course the MGT Forum is going to have more discussions on MGT then a more generic Traveller forum. I won't argue with that. I'm a CotI member, but I understandably come here to discuss MGT. About the only discussion "specifically MGT" at CotI is understandably going to be it's relation to the classic versions of Traveller.

Focused or generic isn't the issue, here. The issue - or issues, to be exact - are civility (or lack thereof in the case of CotI) and impartial moderation. When you have a mod staff who act more like goons, who actively insult posters over their preference of edition and refuse to act impartially, it's going to impact the activity on the forum.

If I said, "I hear crickets on the MGT forum about CT", I would understandably get beat with a verbal bat by members here - I would join in on myself as a MGT member and fan.

Non sequitir. The Mongoose forums don't even have a subforum for CT. Now you're just putting up strawmen.

In my opinion CotI has grown into a generic Traveller forum for CT and its direct descendants (a.i. you don't find much Gurps Traveller discussion there either, go to the Steven Jackson forums if you don't want to hear crickets). CT, MT,TNE, T4, T5 are the primary topics of discussion at CotI. T20 from time to time also but I think only due to the forum's history.

And how is MGT not a direct descendant? Because its licensed to another company? The system is pretty much the same as CT and MT, plus MGT is supposedly the basic version of T5. How much closer do you need it to get to be a direct descendant? Yet another strawman.

For many of these versions, CotI seems to be the "unofficially official" forum remaining for discussion. Some "officialness" comes from past Traveller authors of these versions frequenting there, direct connections of Marc Miller to some members, etc.

Y'know, official, unofficial, focused, generic - none of these things has anything to do with the issue at hand. In case you haven't noticed, a number of Traveller fans and at least one author have pretty much fallen away from the main community. Why? It wasn't over whether a forum was official or unofficial, it wasn't because a forum was generic or focused, it was because there was a lack of civility (and in the case of the author, severe unprofessional behavior on the part of those vetting material). It was because those who didn't like MGT decided to make those who do feel unwelcome.

I didn't want to count stats for a week so stopped at a day to try to prove my point. Even so you must admit the figures were in the same ballpark. It was 63 vs. 43 posts, not something like 200 vs. 10. Please go ahead and count up a week's stats if you think the two forums won't still be within the same range. My money is also on MGT, but it won't be enough difference to call one forum active and the other, "lonely and dilapidated".

If you weren't willing to go the distance, why bother? My money is also on MGT, but if CotI wants to be an "official" Traveller forum for the game's community, there needs to be some serious changes in management and moderation over there.

Indeed? Everyone of course is going to have a broad range of feelings on this. Having been a member (just) of both forums for years, I can honestly (again) say there isn't much difference to me in the civlity of the two forums. Both have been vexed with irrate members. Both, like most any gaming forum, have discussions go off the deep end.

And yet one of the two forums in question has a history poor moderation and several abusive mods. *looks around* I can tell you this forum is not the problem forum.

"Pax et bonum" along with "toxic", "lonely", "dilapidated"? :wink:

- multiple smiley faces to give undeniable evidence that I intend this as a civil discussion between Traveller fans and not troll baiting.

How disingenuous. You put up multiple strawmen, claim to act in honesty and call me a troll.

Whatever. I'm done discussing this with you. :evil:

And yes, pax et bonum,

Dale

 

[CosmicGamer]

Please, how about some self moderation right here. The topic has slowly veered off. Freedom of speech and all that but, I would kindly ask you to stop and create a new thread topic if you wish to continue discussing forum issues.

Thank you

 

[DeadMike]

So what about Supplements 3,5,6 and 7? Got them? Want to cut me a deal on them?

Oh, and one reason that people do not like so many rule books, is that a lot of people want to be told what to do and not have options or choices. That's my opinion anyway. Explains a lot about the current situation in this country anyway.

 

[Sturn]

Please, how about some self moderation right here. The topic has slowly veered off.
Thank you

I actually started typing my long post before your request. I apologize for one last post. I had also stopped to spend about an hour counting threads at a request(?) from the person I was discussing this matter with. I don't have the will power to toss that time in a trash can. My last post here, honest! :lol:

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I didn't want to count stats for a week so stopped at a day to try to prove my point......<snip>......

If you weren't willing to go the distance, why bother? My money is also on MGT....<snip>....

I took the time to count believe it or not (I counted from May 1st 10:20 PM CST back to April 24th 10:20 PM CST).

MGT Forum - 240 posts
CotI Forum - 304 posts

We both would have lost the bet. Only 1 post at CotI in the past week about MGT. That's why I don't think anyone (?) goes there for strictly MGT discussion when there is already a nice, official forum here for it.

Focused or generic isn't the issue, here.

Your posts were indicating the CotI forum was "lonely" while further posts spoke of "specifically MGT" discussion. I didn't bring up the issue. MGT discussion at a completely MGT forum was being compared to a generic forum.

If I said, "I hear crickets on the MGT forum about CT", I would understandably get beat with a verbal bat by members here - I would join in on myself as a MGT member and fan.

Non sequitir. The Mongoose forums don't even have a subforum for CT. Now you're just putting up strawmen.

I think you missed my point. The MGT traffic at the MGT forum was being compared to the MGT traffic at a CotI forum. I was trying to point out this was non-sensical. Just like comparing the CT traffic at CotI with the CT traffic at MGT which you apparently agree is non-sensical.

How disingenuous. You put up multiple strawmen, claim to act in honesty and call me a troll.

How disingenuous - Honestly nothing I typed was disingenous, sorry you took it that way.

You put up multiple strawmen - In your opinion. You might have a bias as may I.

claim to act in honesty and call me a troll - I did act in complete honesty. I never called you a troll. I was trying to say I wasn't trolling myself for a flame war. Again, sorry you took it that way.

And how is MGT not a direct descendant? Because its licensed to another company?

Yes, that would be one reason. Remember, I'm a fan of MGT and not saying being a direcet descendant is a good or bad thing. MGT and Gurps have their own personal forums, those other direct descendants do not. I was simply pointing out the differences in what the forums cover, not trying to label any version as something good or bad.

Whatever. I'm done discussing this with you. :evil:

Whether you believe it or not I was honestly trying to have a civil discussion about your opinions of the CotI forum.

I guess I'm done too and apologize again to the thread. I guess I should have used 4 smileys, 3 not enough to make sure it was intended as civil.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[GamerDude]

Traveller (as long as I have been following the game) have never been out of print (if you count PDF as not being OOP).

Um... FFE has been printing the CT books for what, over 10 years now? Way before PDF's were the big thing in gaming.

Before FFE started printing it, I don't know if there was a gap between then and whenever GDW stopped printing CT.

 

[rinku]

Anyway Ive had it with Mongoose I just dont think you need all this variation. I am going back to the Classic Traveller books. I will wait to see what T5 has in store instead.

Um.... you ARE aware that there were tons of Classic Traveller books as well, right? There were 3 books in the original set alone....

However, it IS worth remembering that a CT book was only about 50 pages. Books 1-8 crunch down into approximately twice the size of the Mongoose basic rules. That's why we have 760 patrons instead of 76...

 

[Techno-Guru]

Mongoose is not unusual for "book bloat" but it is one of the better ones I have encountered. WotC is horrendous, and Palladium... don't even get me started on RIFTS.

 

[nats]

Anyway Ive had it with Mongoose I just dont think you need all this variation. I am going back to the Classic Traveller books. I will wait to see what T5 has in store instead.

Um.... you ARE aware that there were tons of Classic Traveller books as well, right? There were 3 books in the original set alone....

Sorry, I dont mean to pile on (Ok..maybe I do...) but I'm sitting at my computer within arm's length of a massive shelf of Classic Traveller rules, modules, and sourcebook and am totally mystified by this statement.

Of course...and I sold them all and just bought the Reprint Compilations ... except for my basic set of the first seven books.

But my point is that quality is more important than quantity. Sure there are some things that are good in the Mongoose stuff, I like the way the Core Book brought together a lot of the old rules. But for example the artwork in these new books is truly terrible, and the ship plans are really lousy, why change them from Classic Traveller? Some of the diverse equipment is quite interesting but there is just too much of it. No way you can use all this info without getting very confused.

I would prefer more thought before they release anything else. I mean the most loved systems of all in classic Traveller must surely be square grid miniature combat rules like Snapshot, and large spaceship combat system using vectors to determine ship orientation etc such as Power Projection. And what about miniature rules like Striker.

They are re-releasing all the same rules in these small black books and loads of maps and aliens (boring) but we arent seeing any of the more fun parts of Traveller covered.

Have they actually done a survey to see what people want from Traveller? Is there really that much demand for the Traveller based Slammers or Strontium Dog rules?

 

[rust]

I mean the most loved systems of all in classic Traveller must surely be square grid miniature combat rules like Snapshot, and large spaceship combat system using vectors to determine ship orientation etc such as Power Projection. And what about miniature rules like Striker.

While I have been playing Traveller for thirty years now, I have never
used any of these in my campaigns - I am no fan of military science fic-
tion at all.
So, different people like different things, and I like what Mongoose is pro-
viding me with, for example lots of detailed options other than combat.