Why doesn't anyone play D20 Glorantha?

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I was interested to note that theres always a thread on the Conan board about a MRQ version of Conan, I'll say that Ive joined in too with the debate. But, Im thinking, does anyone play a D20 or OGL version of Glorantha, or Young Kingdoms or Tragic Millennium Europe?

If you do, have you found it to be a better representation of the game world? Given a choice, which would you prefer?

Why is it, do you think, that there are calls for a MRQ version of the Conan setting and not for Glorantha? Is it, do you think, that worlds like Glorantha are too intimately tied to the RQ rules and that a D20 version would be problematic?

Do you think that Slaine was improved by a rules change from D20 to MRQ? Do you think it was worse?

 

[rabindranath72]

I only played and GMed d20 Elric, and it was an abomination. I suppose it could have been the same with Glorantha, so consider yourself lucky that no one did it

I also bought the Slaine RQ version, and it plays much more smoothly than the d20 version (which magic apart, uses the 3e PHB). OTOH, I prefer the Chaosium version of Elric.

Which again begs the question of whether RQ can do S&S or not. The existence of Elric, Lankhmar and Slaine would seem to imply a "yes". If this is true, the corollary is that even Conan could be done quite well. So, either the Mongoose guys are morons for not using d20 to do Elric and Lankhmar (but they did Slaine! which is dead), or there is actually merit to the RQ system to handle S&S.

Obviously d20 Conan fans will say that d20 Conan works better than any RQ version of Conan might ever work, but they fail to answer whether the other S&S games are crap for using RQ or not (I suppose to not hurt the Mongoose guys).

I would say that the facts that d20 Conan acquired a large fan base, and that it sells well, are the main reasons why Conan still stays d20, and not for a lack of ability of RQ to handle S&S. Besides, it seems Vincent Darlage had almost ready a RQ version of Conan.

 

[The King]

When there was a possibility to move Glorantha to D20, another game system was instead created.
There was also a trial to adapt Glorantha to AD&D but it never interested much people.
Though levels could be of some use, I don't think classes (and especially D20 classes) are really suited to such a world as Glorantha.
Moreover, heroic quests are so special they deserve someway their own rules.

 

[smiorgan]

The question is complex... I will give several answers...

Preamble: I'm not a big fan of the d20 system, so that's probably why I don't clamor for adaptations of any game to that system.

That said:

1) Dragon Lords of Melniboné (Elric d20) - which I own - was probably one of the worst products ever put forth by Chaosium and it is widely regarded as an abomination BOTH by Stormbringer/Elric fans and by D20 fans. You can't compare that with OGL Conan, which is a well done game which I would gladly play (but not GM). If Chaosium, instead of quickly trying to capitalize on the d20 craze had done a serious adaptation of Elric, they would ave probably been quite succesful.

2) Most D20 fans don't care or don't know about Glorantha, while everybody knows Conan.

3) Yes, RuneQuest and Glorantha are historically tied and it makes marketing sense to use the two brands together. I think "Glorantha" basically has to audiences: 1) those who are primarily Gloranthan fans (who seem to be already well served by the HeroQuest game, or maybe by freeform games, or maybe just by simply reading about glorantha); 2) Those, like me, who are primarily RQ fans and are fond of Glorantha as one cool setting to play RQ in. A D20 Glorantha would leave cold the first crowd and totally alienate the second group. Not a good move.

4) I think that D&D4 would be a good fit - much better than D&D3/D20- for an truly over the top 2nd Age Gloranthan skirmish/rpg hybrid. Actually, Glorantha would offer believable mythic/religious motivations for many of the over the top powers and stunts that D&D4 characters do. I can easily see a messy whizz-bang battle with Godlearner sorcerers, Dragonwets, Wyrmfriend mystics and assorted weirdness being played using a D&D4 variant. Just don't call it RQ ... or an RPG...

5) Lankhmar was an old time AD&D setting. The basic city book was great (in both editions), but the supplements where inconsistent, and old TSR never decided between adapting the rules to the setting or the setting to the rules, doing a bit of both often badly. Being a low fantasy setting, with an emphasis on stealth, roguish skills, and deception a deadly, skill based system like RQ/BRP seemed the perfect fit. Unfortunately, the published RQ Lankhmar books were a bit less playable/complete than what I (and others) expected. There is hope that Lankhmar Unleashed will rectify this...

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

I dont want to get into an OGL Conan bashing exercise, but a point raised seems to make me a bit frustrated about Mongooses position here. One of the major contributors to the Conan line obviously plays, or has played it with RQ rules. An actual, regular freelancer has made the effort of converting Conan to RQ. Why? For possible production? I suppose Mongoose wont say that it was commissioned. But neither do they say that the OGL is a fantastic engine for the S&S world of Conan. Its not. Their position is one of, 'well, its sells, we dont want to disrupt sales, and we dont want to annoy anyone'. Which is fine, but that is going to encourage people to talk about other possibilities, especially in light of the fact that theyve crossed over other systems, away from D20, (Slaine and Judge Dredd, although Ive not inspected JD, so I will admit ignorance there). Ive never seen Mongoose translate any one of their systems the other way around, from a non-D20 engine to D20. They would be crazy if they did.

And that goes for Elric, Hawkmoon, etc.. Even if those lines are suffering poor sales, it wouldnt help to translate them to a D20 system. I would suspect that such a move would hasten their demise.

I can appreciate Mongoose having made their business on D20 lines, and that there will be some remnants of that era, still being successful, Conan being one. Of course Conan is going to sell. Its one of the most archetypal fantasy licenses in existence. Its my assumption that Conan would sell, if done well, (as Mongoose have), regardless of engine, and thats why we have OGL Conan today. Not because its a perfect marriage of engine and setting.

As far as Dragonlords of Melnibone is concerned, I think that was just a lazy conversion. It could have been acceptable as a D20 setting, I just think Chaosium werent 100% behind the idea, leading to a lacklustre conversion. Actually, often, it used the same systems as the BRP version. Not one of Chaosiums finest moments.

 

[rabindranath72]

Keep in mind that there are also licensing reasons. It has been stated more than once, for example, that there cannot exist two versions of a Conan rpg at the same time.

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Keep in mind that there are also licensing reasons. It has been stated more than once, for example, that there cannot exist two versions of a Conan rpg at the same time.

True, true, and thats why theres a debate of 'either/or'. There wouldnt be an issue if, even, those RQ conversion rules were revealed.

 

[Gevrin]

To answer the question fairly, someone somewhere probably has along with many other systems used to run Glorantha.

The original RQ rules were commissioned for Glorantha roleplaying as an alternative to D&D - losing levels, class restrictions and cumulative hit points and adding skills training, reusable magic, etc. Greg Stafford later said that RQ wasn't a great fit for his vision of Glorantha though I'm inclined to think that it fit some aspects but not others as his vision changed and ideas developed.

Pendragon rules were the primary alternative for a lot of years and from experience they played pretty well (and used a d20) with the RQ magic system plugging in almost intact (crunched to d20 from d100). Pendragon Pass was available on the web. Still a very different beast from straight d20 though.

Hero Wars/Heroquest is of course the current Stafford-official Glorantha system though many people struggle with the shift from a broadly simulationist ruleset towards a more storytelling approach.

And that brings us to MRQ for Glorantha. Many were shocked that Stafford would licence an apparent rival to his own game (HQ) and some old school RQ players disliked the changes from RQ2/3 accusing MGP of making the game too like d20! :?

Other systems were published on the web. Moon Wars used the West End Games Star Wars system. GURPS Glorantha used to be available. MERP was advocated by some...

So essentially some people may have tried d20 but people playing in Glorantha have tended to look elsewhere for their rules and have shied away from the very features of d20/D&D that Stafford was trying to avoid in the late seventies!

Analysis over, back to the cupboard...

Cheers

Dave

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Interesting.

Though I dont think any game system would be a perfect fit for Greg Stafford. I dislike 'storytelling' games, and have no interest in attempting to recreate imaginary myth via non-crunchy games systems. With this, I depart, along with many others, from Gregs ideal. Originally, the reservations seemed to stem from the fact that RQ was too gritty.

To say Pendragon was D20 is stretching it a bit! The combat system was pretty much taken directly from RQ.

And, in all of your (very interesting) post, theres no evidence that any would seriously use a version of D&D to play in Glorantha. I dont suppose its never happened, Wyrms Footprints had D&D stats for the movers and shakers of 3rd age Glorantha, for instance, but it seems unlikely to be a common pastime for rpg enthusiasts.

Since D&Ds inception, people have had problems with it. Its a really divisive system, in a way that RQ never was. Even hard line D&Ders saw that RQ was of slicker design. Its just that, well, D&D is just so annoyingly popular! But even though D&Ds popularity was so unassailable, I never did see a D20 version of Glorantha being played anywhere.

 

[rabindranath72]

Interesting.

Though I dont think any game system would be a perfect fit for Greg Stafford. I dislike 'storytelling' games, and have no interest in attempting to recreate imaginary myth via non-crunchy games systems. With this, I depart, along with many others, from Gregs ideal. Originally, the reservations seemed to stem from the fact that RQ was too gritty.

To say Pendragon was D20 is stretching it a bit! The combat system was pretty much taken directly from RQ.

And, in all of your (very interesting) post, theres no evidence that any would seriously use a version of D&D to play in Glorantha. I dont suppose its never happened, Wyrms Footprints had D&D stats for the movers and shakers of 3rd age Glorantha, for instance, but it seems unlikely to be a common pastime for rpg enthusiasts.

Since D&Ds inception, people have had problems with it. Its a really divisive system, in a way that RQ never was. Even hard line D&Ders saw that RQ was of slicker design. Its just that, well, D&D is just so annoyingly popular! But even though D&Ds popularity was so unassailable, I never did see a D20 version of Glorantha being played anywhere.

I don't think the previous poster meant that. Mongoose RQ has been accused of being too close to d20.
For what is worth, I too am using the Pendragon system with Stormbringer skills and Call of Cthulhu sorcery for my Hyborian Age game. And it works a charm!

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Interesting.

Though I dont think any game system would be a perfect fit for Greg Stafford. I dislike 'storytelling' games, and have no interest in attempting to recreate imaginary myth via non-crunchy games systems. With this, I depart, along with many others, from Gregs ideal. Originally, the reservations seemed to stem from the fact that RQ was too gritty.

To say Pendragon was D20 is stretching it a bit! The combat system was pretty much taken directly from RQ.

And, in all of your (very interesting) post, theres no evidence that any would seriously use a version of D&D to play in Glorantha. I dont suppose its never happened, Wyrms Footprints had D&D stats for the movers and shakers of 3rd age Glorantha, for instance, but it seems unlikely to be a common pastime for rpg enthusiasts.

Since D&Ds inception, people have had problems with it. Its a really divisive system, in a way that RQ never was. Even hard line D&Ders saw that RQ was of slicker design. Its just that, well, D&D is just so annoyingly popular! But even though D&Ds popularity was so unassailable, I never did see a D20 version of Glorantha being played anywhere.

I don't think the previous poster meant that. Mongoose RQ has been accused of being too close to d20.
For what is worth, I too am using the Pendragon system with Stormbringer skills and Call of Cthulhu sorcery for my Hyborian Age game. And it works a charm!

Do you own Basic Roleplaying? It has all those options in one handy package.

 

[Gevrin]

Have you seen LES HEROS DE GLORANTHA - Idées hérétiques pour jouer dans Glorantha avec DnD 3ème édition (D20 System), a french language adaptation of D&D3e. Don't know how it plays though.

Cheers

Dave

 

[rabindranath72]

Do you own Basic Roleplaying? It has all those options in one handy package.

Yes I bought it, but it does not have the CoC spells, nor the Pendragon skill resolution and combat system. I am also using Passions, which are only hinted at in the BRP book.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I recall discussing this with some other Glorantha-philes back when d20 was the "big thing". We felt that (at that time) that it would be a good thing, although it might not be a game that *we* wanted to run or play. There was no RQ at this stage, and "HeroQuest" was still "Hero Wars", which, being very different to "traditional" games, as well as suffering from some unfortunate printing problems was unlikely to bring in much new blood. We weren't looking for a game that would play in exactly the same way as any of the previous games, but something that would give newcomers the same opportunities and excitement we had when all we knew was the William Church Maps and Cults of Prax.
I'd see such a game being built more on the d20 Modern / d20 Cthulhu model rather than the D&D model

I don't think there is any compelling reason for a d20 Glorantha today - While there are still many D20 players, I think may of them are now settled in their games/settings of choice, and most of those prepared to look outside are not put off by new systems. I can't think, off the top of my head of any previously established setting that went the "d20" route that is still publishing d20 material today.

These days, the most sensible "port" would probably be Savage Worlds. Produce it as a "plot point" campaign like "50 Fathoms" or "Slipstream" or "The Flood" (the latter is for Deadlands Reloaded, which is effectively Savage Worlds anyway). For those not familiar these books provide a lot of small adventures or adventure seeds tied to various locations, together with a "Story arc" of linked adventures. Players can therefore wander about within the setting without being forced down the plot railroad. The campaing needn't be lozenge-spanning, (From a MRQ or HQ point of view you'd hope to "hook" the Savage world players with this product, so that they then start to buy into the other Gloranthan lines, even if they only do so to get material to convert back to their system of choice.

Hero Quest has always been trumpeted as "Stat light", so that "gameable" HQ material should be relatively easy to "port across" to any other system that you might prefer to use. This is the approach that Green Ronin are now taking with Freeport - Publish the Setting as a big, system-free book, and sell smaller guides that contain the "rules" parts for specific systems.

 

[Gevrin]

Incidently for those interested, the web version of the Pendragon Pass rules are still available on David Dunham's page.

Cheers

Dave

 

[kintire]

Obviously d20 Conan fans will say that d20 Conan works better than any RQ version of Conan might ever work, but they fail to answer whether the other S&S games are crap for using RQ or not (I suppose to not hurt the Mongoose guys).

I have said exactly this, and given my reasons why not. As for the other S&S games, I havent said anything about them because I've never tried them. I've read some Lieber, however, and it is nothing like Howard. Fafhrd and the Grey Mouser, while not reluctant to use steel to solve problems, are not the sort of wild killing machines Conan is. They use cunning, careful plans and magic to even heavy odds. As for Elric, I have never read any Moorcock so I have no idea how it works.

As for d20 Glorantha, I think that the base d20 system is a poor fit. The combat system fits the Hero Wars style of play, but most of the background was written under RQ, which supports the grittier style.

The dynamic between culture, profession and cult would be very difficult to model under a class based system. It would need a rewrite from the ground up, and I can't see how it wouldn't end up fiendishly complicated. As for the magic system, its just completely different. The whole assumptions behind RQ magic are different, and deeply embedded in the world background as well. Almost everyone has access to magic, there are different types and the differences between the types are far more profound than just a different spell list.

I think there is very little doubt that the best system for Glorantha is one off the RQ variants. I would really like to say Hero Quest, and it almost almost was... but alas so near can be so far.

 

[kurgan84]

Have you seen LES HEROS DE GLORANTHA - Idées hérétiques pour jouer dans Glorantha avec DnD 3ème édition (D20 System), a french language adaptation of D&D3e. Don't know how it plays though.

Cheers

Dave

It is not realy a adaptation of D&D3, more like a mix of RQ, Herowar and D&D !

 

[Deleriad]

The dynamic between culture, profession and cult would be very difficult to model under a class based system. It would need a rewrite from the ground up, and I can't see how it wouldn't end up fiendishly complicated. As for the magic system, its just completely different. The whole assumptions behind RQ magic are different, and deeply embedded in the world background as well. Almost everyone has access to magic, there are different types and the differences between the types are far more profound than just a different spell list.

With the caveat that I play and run RQ Glorantha and have never actually played d20 but I am something of a system junky, I reckon it's not particularly difficult to run Glorantha in d20 (or any other class and level system.)

The difference between a character in RQ (or GURPs, HERO etc) and d20 is that in RQ you build your character from constituent parts and end up with a whole. In d20 you start with a whole and then plug-in the different parts.

So, say you want to build a character who is a god-speaker for an Orlanthi clan then you decide that this is a character class something like a cleric and then put the parts in that fit best.

The problem with the class system is a general one: you keep breaking down class types into smaller and smaller subtypes because the basic typology almost never exactly fits. Nice for publishers because they can keep on selling more and more books.

On the other hand, RQ-like systems start with as many options as you have pieces to play with. So you could build 100 RQ characters and, afterwards, say that some are fairly like clerics, some a bit like fighting-men, some a bit like magic users and so on.

In some respects it is no more difficult to play Glorantha using d20 as it is to play any other setting. There is one more caveat though. Some genres (e.g. Conan, Lord of the Rings) feature very strong stereotypes in the source literature. It is fairly easy to capture the feel of stereotypes in a class-based system because that's exactly what class-based systems do. Stafford's stories of Glorantha, however, deliberately break-away from stereotypes so it can be very difficult to graft on any kind of meaningful class-based system that does justice to the source material.

 

[nellist]

To do D&D in certain parts of Glorantha , I think you'd be best to use cults as character classes.

"I'm a level 4 Storm Bull"
"I'm a first level Seven Mothers initiate"

It would take a lot of work to create those character classes, but that seems the obvious thing to do. Level 7 becomes a Rune Priest or something.

One of the worst parts of Hero Wars, IMO, was the pseudo character class thing that you got from the Keyword stuff.


Keith

 

[PrinceYyrkoon]

Maybe it wouldnt need so much work. I see initiates and priests/lords of cults being like a prestige class. Various prerequisites to fulfil before you can enter a cult at a serious level. Lay members could just be ordinary classes, with one or two extra benefits from the cult, a minor ability. Possibly initiate-dom would be a few specific feats.

So, say you had to have a prerequisite of 12 levels of something, or a mix that added up to 12, then you could apply for the prestige class of Wind Lord or whatever. Along with the 1st level of your prestige class would come specific benefits of the cult wether you are a riunelord or priest.