Why does every one consider Low Berth "so deadly"?

[Somebody]

No longer interested in Traveller

 

[Condottiere]

It is customary for the ship’s captain to contribute Cr10 from every low passage towards a lottery in which each low passenger randomly guesses how many will survive the trip. If the winner is among the dead, the captain collects the prize.

 

[tytalan]

I read "low berth are to deadly" quite often. Now if I look at the rules (page 158 in the 2022 rules book):

1) Waking up a passenger: Routine (6+) Medic check (1Dx10min, INT) with +1 for a TL12+ low berth, assuming a sophont matching the low berth is frozen

So assume our Free Trader/Far Trader/Subbi Merchant/Subbi Liner => They are all TL-12 => They only need to roll a 5

2) Page 36 of the rules book says "going slower" gives a DM +2. Since our crew has the time they take 1D hours and get DM +2 => They only need to roll a 3

Now take either a competent medic (Medic 1 and INT 6+ or Medic 0 and INT 9+) and we get another +1 => They only need to roll a 2

3) Unless I overlooked it (and I searched the PDF for Failure) there is no "Automatic Fail" in MgT 2e. So our intrepid crew can not fail the roll. Assuming the sophont matches the birth it will always survive if even a barely competent medic is on board. Given that Medic is one of the Background Skills on page 9 and an INT of 9 is not super high that is doable.

3a) As an alternative they can hire a medic with the skills at the target starport.

Conclusion: Unless you travell on a very low tech (TL-12 is very common in the OTU) coffin ship and/or do not use a species-matching ice box any half way competent crew will guarantee survival. A TL11- low berth will require Medic 1 AND INT 9+ but even that is doable.

1 the lion share of freetraders in Traveller are actually base on TL9 and the same with FarTraders except where the changes are made for jump 2 so for most cases the they need a 6+
2 yup as long as they take time this helps but remember 1
3 this depends on the ship but even with such a medic you still die 1 out of 11 that’s not quite 10% but it’s close enough and there are definitely cases where that number is greater.
While TL 12 is common in the core of the imperium it’s not as common in areas like the Spinward marches or the Trojan reach
And while Medic 1 and Int 9+ is doable your talking a person with a high IQ and the equivalent of being a nurse practitioner yes this is doable but how do you know that the freetrader your on has someone with those qualifications? Medic 0 and int 6/7 is going to be far more common and now the death rate goes up at lot.
Remember just because in the best case scenario you have no problem doesn’t mean that your likely to get that scenario

 

[Sigtrygg]

It is a holdover from the days of CT when the risk of death in a low berth was much greater (something "borrowed" from the Dumarest universe).
As with death during character generation some things are remembered even when they have long since been written out of the game.

 

[AnotherDilbert]

I read "low berth are to deadly" quite often.

Classic Traveller 1977, Book 2, p2:
Unfortunately, the low passage system involves some intrinsic dangers to the passenger, and he runs some risk of not surviving the voyage. Throw 5+ for each passenger, when he is revived after the ship has landed. DMs: Attending medic of expertise of 2 or better, +1; low passenger with an endurance of 6 or less, – 1. Failure to achieve the throw to revive results in death for the passenger.

Roughly 16% death rate...

Yes, that stopped being a much of a thing with Megatraveller in the mid-80's.


But even in MgT you are forgetting the passenger:

Low Passage: A low passenger is frozen in a low berth and counts as cargo. There is real danger to the passenger, as a Routine (6+) Medic check (1D x 10 minutes, INT) is required upon opening the capsule, applying the passenger’s END DM to the check.

It's not much of a problem if the ship's crew are always competent and conscientious, unless you are old or frail.

Are all free trader crews always competent and conscientious? Note that if you are going slow, it takes a about 3-4 hours per passenger to revive. For the 20 low berths in a Free Trader, that is about ten days work...

Do all passengers have average END or better?

 

[tytalan]

As for worlds and ships and TL:

• In the Spinward Marches I have 24 systems with a TL of C (12), 8 with TL of D (13) and 4 with TL of F (15)
• In Trojan Reach I have 34 TL-C, 20 TL-D systems (yes, quite a few of both are Aslan worlds) and even a few E and F.
• In the Core Rules, High Guard and Adventure Class ships I find a total of 3 imperial Passenger/Cargo craft at TL-11 and one (the Antique Trader) at TL-9.
• I have to go "out of the 3I" to find TL-10/11 ships that are "in common use" (Trailing frontier has some for example)

So the vast majority of "in universe" examples for MgT 2e is TL12+ and one can assume that in the rather libertarian business world of the setting "May the Buyer look at the goods before paying" is a commonly exercised caution. So no sane person will travel "low berth" in a TL11- ship or one without a medic. And if possible a MedBay (DM +1, the Liner has one for example of a canon design as have a few ships in Adventure Class ships or the Rift Trader from Trailing)

1 so out of 80+ worlds you have 36 worlds tl12+ thank you for proving my point
2 the original Ct, MT and other version of the Beowulf was TL 9 and if you check out adventure class ships you will find plenty. You can argue what you want.
1 out of 11 is when you target is 3 and you roll snake eyes.
Your assumption is your getting either medic 1 or medic 0 with a 9+ int if you think your going to automatically get that good luck.

 

[tytalan]

Another thing is your assuming that they are going to defrost one at a time. I doubt that would be the case and the more the medic is working on the higher the negative DM.

 

[Vormaerin]

The Imperium has been steadily getting safer, more developed, and less frontier like with every edition. You can have this argument about lots of things. Unrefined fuel used to be a problem to use, now it's basically the default. Lasers used to be very nasty, now they are kind of subpar. Tramp traders used to be lower tech and medic 1 wasn't enough to give a bonus to low berth survival. Rules change more than fiction does.

The fact is that Dumarest style low berths make no sense for Traveller, because they aren't used the same way. Low berths in Dumarest stories are cattle freezers used by what are essentially a hobo class of migrants that are operated by unscrupulous crews that are largely indifferent to or borderline hostile to those passengers. Low berths in Traveller are basically just economy class tickets routinely used by normal travellers. Not to mention the Frozen Watch.

 

[Ol'Weedy]

As someone who has had his fill of air travel, I'd take a low berth trip every time, even with my (at best) 5 END
Regardless of survival statistics...

 

[tytalan]

Again - Interpretation of the rules. But worst case - yes, that is what a low end medic would have to do (As said - I see this as a batch task since the ice box does the work IMU and the medic is for emergencies)

But again - easily compensated, get some technological help if your medic skill is not good enough. Better TL (TL12) med kit, expert system and maybe a medbay (as some ships have by canon) and even the Medic 0/INT 6 guy can do three at a time

So when you have surgery next you want the doctor operating on 19 other people at the same time. Also with 6 stats at 2d6 your average person is going to have 2 stats that are sub average so 33% of people are going to have negative DMs on their test.

I think I’m done talking since you are set on this in your universe make it as safe and commonplace as you want. You’re not going to listen to anyone else either way. Not sure why you posted.

 

[Arkathan]

I forgot the END thing. But yes, I would assume anyone who does travel that way is of average or slightly below average (7 or 6) health

As for the time - that would be a discussion. On my table I assume it is for "a batch of people" not just one.

That would fall under the multiple actions rule. Each pod is a task. For every other pod they are working, DM -2.
As AnotherDilbert said, they won't be doing the slow method. If they do anything with time, they'll take the penalty for going fast.
Assume that the low passenger signed a release indemnifying the crew in the case of their untimely death. There is no penalty to the crew unless they start getting a large number of fatalities on a repeated route.

 

[MasterGwydion]

1 so out of 80+ worlds you have 36 worlds tl12+ thank you for proving my point
2 the original Ct, MT and other version of the Beowulf was TL 9 and if you check out adventure class ships you will find plenty. You can argue what you want.
1 out of 11 is when you target is 3 and you roll snake eyes.
Your assumption is your getting either medic 1 or medic 0 with a 9+ int if you think your going to automatically get that good luck.

Starports within the Imperium are automatically TL-12. Who do you think builds the starships? Starports, largely controlled by the Starport Authority and are therefore, TL-12

 

[MasterGwydion]

That would fall under the multiple actions rule. Each pod is a task. For every other pod they are working, DM -2.
As AnotherDilbert said, they won't be doing the slow method. If they do anything with time, they'll take the penalty for going fast.
Assume that the low passenger signed a release indemnifying the crew in the case of their untimely death. There is no penalty to the crew unless they start getting a large number of fatalities on a repeated route.

TL-12 Low Berth 0.5 tons 50,000Cr +0DM
Failure on a 5-

or

TL-12 Medical Chamber 65,500Cr +4DM (this price will come down if you include things like no manipulators and such)
0% chance of failure
Robot Chassis - 2,000Cr
Medical Chamber (50 slot) 10,000Cr
Improved Low Berth 20,000Cr +1DM
Advanced Brain 10,000CR
Specialized Medic +1 2,500Cr
Medic/2 20,000Cr +2DM
Expert (medic)/1 1,000Cr +1DM

 

[Condottiere]

You can check the free trader's website on what (medical) facilities they have, the qualifications of their medic, and what's the survival rate they have had for low berth passages.

Then, the Yelp reviews.

 

[Vormaerin]

That's a different issue. I don't have crappy low berths in my campaign either.

But the answer to your question is "The rules changed and the fiction didn't." Same thing with the X-boats. The way they are worked for the rules they were designed under.

Traveller has issues with the rules and the fiction not matching. Some things are much harder than implied (the current rules on gas giant skimming trend that way), while other things are easier than expected (surviving low berths).

There's no resolution to these issues. You just decide whether you want to adjust the rules to reflect the fiction or if you want to adjust the fiction to reflect the rules.

 

[Condottiere]

You could do it like drop tanks.

Basic survival roll, minus technological level.

 

[ottarrus]

Well, 'deadly' depends on whether you lost a character to a bad roll in the recovery process...
Let's just say that I've lost more than one...
Something else to consider is that LBs are often used as the 'medic of last resort' when a PC has a disease or wound too great for the guy with Medic 0 to handle. Most reasonable refs will apply negative DMs to the Medic check to recover from cold sleep if patient's health is compromised.

 

[Arkathan]

TL-12 Low Berth 0.5 tons 50,000Cr +0DM
Failure on a 5-

or

TL-12 Medical Chamber 65,500Cr +4DM (this price will come down if you include things like no manipulators and such)
0% chance of failure
Robot Chassis - 2,000Cr
Medical Chamber (50 slot) 10,000Cr
Improved Low Berth 20,000Cr +1DM
Advanced Brain 10,000CR
Specialized Medic +1 2,500Cr
Medic/2 20,000Cr +2DM
Expert (medic)/1 1,000Cr +1DM

I am aware of the above. The fancy stuff only incentivizes cutting corners.

 

[tytalan]

Starports within the Imperium are automatically TL-12. Who do you think builds the starships? Starports, largely controlled by the Starport Authority and are therefore, TL-12

Source of this assessment because I’ve not seen it in any book. Book and PG# or its opinion

 

[MasterGwydion]

Source of this assessment because I’ve not seen it in any book. Book and PG# or its opinion

Third Imperium - Starports pg. 43 under Tech Level. Mongoose Publishing 2011