Where Fate Points Go . . .

BhilJhoanz

Mongoose
Valerian Emilius: Bossonian Archer stationed at Fort Gakathonkie in the Westermarck.

Stuck between a Shaman and his summoned Alligator --> at 0hp, makes a final desperate attack on the sorely injured shaman, misses, goes negative. --> 1 Fate point later, he awakes naked and tied to a stake in a Pictish Village.

During a sleepless night in the Pictish wilds, injured from an earlier skirmish with Pictish raiders --> an unnatural fog rises in the night, men at arms are being dragged into the night by unseen Picts. With his broadsword in one hand and his axe in the other, Valerian takes point to put an end to these Pictish incursions --> 1 Fate point later, he awakes naked and tied to a stake in a Pictish Village.

A pirate mutiny on the west coast of the Pictish Wilderness puts our hero on the wrong side of a losing battle --> set ashore on a marshy island where he and his companions find the cyclopean ruins of an ancient, green stoned civilization. Forced inland by dire spirits in the bayou they come upon man apes worshipping before a profane altar. He swoons a the sight of them --> 1 Fate point later, he awakes naked and tied to a raft about to be sacrificed to their tentacled god.

Confronting the Pirate captain yet again --> after a pitched battle, the pirate and his sparse crew are left facing Valerian and his companions. Valerian calls out the captain in single combat for control of the ship. The captain beats Valerian's 20 initiative and sneak attacks the hell out of him. Valerian fails his massive damage save --> 1 Fate point later, he awakes naked and onshore, his wounds being tended by pictish villagers.

Total Fate Point's Remaining: 0

Mitra Save Me!
 
Those Picts really like taking clothes off, don't they? My characters usually just end up half-naked, living in a van down by the river.
 
Fearguis said:
Those Picts really like taking clothes off, don't they? My characters usually just end up half-naked, living in a van down by the river.

Van down by the river? Do you mean your characters or your players? :wink:
 
BhilJhoanz said:
Confronting the Pirate captain yet again --> after a pitched battle, the pirate and his sparse crew are left facing Valerian and his companions. Valerian calls out the captain in single combat for control of the ship. The captain beats Valerian's 20 initiative and sneak attacks the hell out of him. Valerian fails his massive damage save --> 1 Fate point later, he awakes naked and onshore, his wounds being tended by pictish villagers.
I hate to quick bringing this up, but you probably shouldn't have been sheak attacked.

You called the pirate captain out in a duel. This means you and your opponent are both aware of each other as opponents. If you decide to wait a few rounds while everyone else backs off and makes a nice space for you to fight in, that doesn't suddenly turn you flatfooted. In effect, both you and the captain performed "ready" actions until the time that the duel was supposed to start.

Just a minor note. I'd bring this up with yout GM, not that you'd get your Fate point back necessarily, but just as a point for the future.
 
you probably shouldn't have been sneak attacked.

This was discussed briefly during the game. The GM called for a new initiative roll for our duel -- since I had not yet acted, I should be considered Flat Footed. Sucks badly, yes, but I would have expect the same had the situation been reversed. The readied action idea was also discussed but truth is it was like a gun fight, he was faster.

What's more, I was rather doomed from the start since this Pirate was 7th level, I'm guessing, and I was 2nd. Valerian would have known nothing about "Sneak Attack Damage" or "Level" but would have acted out of pride and honor. Important lesson learned!
 
I think the whole "Anyone who hasn't acted yet is flat-footed" rule is utter crap. If you're aware that the fecal matter is about to hit the oscillating air circulation device, you shouldn't be flat-footed. You should only be flat-footed if you're not aware of your opponent's attacks. If he's coming straight for you and you know this, and you can see him, then you're not flat-footed.
 
I've never heard of a rule wherein you're flatfooted if you haven't performed an action.

If you're aware of your opponent, then you can't be sneak attacked. (Unless he has you flanked) That's why thieves sneak up on people before attacking. If you can Move Silently and get behind your opponent without him realizing you're there, then you can Sneak Attack the hell out of him. Simply being the person with the highest initiative does not give you that benefit.
 
From the D&D SRD "Combat I":
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.
A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Johannixx, we find playing with the published rules makes the game easier than having to keep track of unnecessary house rules (though we do have house rules). In this case, the situation applies to everyone equally so it's a fine rule to use. In most encounters, we tend to win initiative so it usually works to our advantage.
get behind your opponent without him realizing you're there
There's also no facing in 3.x SRD so there is no "behind". What you're describing is being able to act before your opponent -- ie. before his "first regular turn in the initiative order" or during a surprise round.

Ironically, I was the person who pointed out to my DM that I calling for a new init would leave the loser flatfooted . . . I should probably ask for an earned fate point for being honest and fair!
 
I don't have my book in front of me, but I'm almost positive there's a section in there about Surprise. If I'm not mistaken, it states nearly the opposite of what you just posted. (Basically, unless you have the element of surprise at the start of combat, no one is flat-footed) I'll look at it tonight.

On the other part, I don't mean you get a sneak attack for being behind someone. I'm just assuming that you WOULD be behind someone if you're sneaking up on them. :) It's considerably more difficult to sneak in FRONT of someone.

I've never seen that rule you mentioned, but it would definitely make rogues considerably more dangerous in my campaign...
 
VincentDarlage said:
Johannixx said:
You should only be flat-footed if you're not aware of your opponent's attacks.

That is called the surprise round - and they are flat-footed there too.

Surprise rounds are one thing, starting out with two people knowing they're about to start a duel is another.
 
I am just saying that not being aware is called surprise and is not flat-footed. Flat-footed is a different concept. As a fencer, I can be perfectly aware of my opponent, but often the aggressor gets in a good shot. Once the fencing match has progressed, both person's reflexes hone in and it becomes harder to hit the other. I won many matches just by being more aggressive and getting in the first hit. Had nothing to do with awareness of the opponent. As two people stand off, there is a lot of thinking going... where is he going to go, what is he going to do, etc. Thinking creates a pause in action. Once the match gets started, thinking gives way to instinct, which creates instant actions and reactions.

That is what the flat-footed concept is all about. It is not about surprise, or being caught unawares. It is about not being in the moment yet.

It is in that pause between thinking and reaction that sneak attacks come in.

Anyone who hasn't acted yet is flat-footed, and I think that is realistic.
 
I can see it, and yet I can't. I've been practicing Western martial arts for several years now, both rapier and Liechtenauer-style armored longsword, and I've rarely had the opportunity to get a truly flat-footed shot in on an opponent. It's happened, but it was more of a feint than truly catching them unawares. Against a trained opponent, it almost never happens, at least in my experience.
 
I think some of the classes don't lose DV for being flat-footed at a certain point (Uncanny Dodge). This would reflect the higher training or higher instinct you're talking about.

Among the lesser trained, this 'pause', even though fully aware of the foe, is more pronounced, I think. Essentially it will always be better to have the initiative.

The flat-footed rule shows also how much easier it is to feint at the onset of a melee than in the middle.
 
BhilJhoanz said:
From the D&D SRD "Combat I":
Flat-Footed: At the start of a battle, before you have had a chance to act (specifically, before your first regular turn in the initiative order), you are flat-footed. You can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC (if any) while flat-footed. Barbarians and rogues have the uncanny dodge extraordinary ability, which allows them to avoid losing their Dexterity bonus to AC due to being flat-footed.
A flat-footed character can’t make attacks of opportunity.
Johannixx, we find playing with the published rules makes the game easier than having to keep track of unnecessary house rules (though we do have house rules). In this case, the situation applies to everyone equally so it's a fine rule to use. In most encounters, we tend to win initiative so it usually works to our advantage.

You are correct sir!

However....

There is a reason why we have a real live DM running the game instead of a Computron 3000. The truth is that DnD, and therefore d20, was designed for combat in a dungeon enviornment. The further you get away from that enviornment the shakier the rules become. In a dungeon combat looks something like this:
players blow their spot/listen checks
monsters blow their spot/listen checks
players walk around the corner, straight into the mosters
no suprise round, everyone is suprised
those with low initavite are flat-footed as they try to pull themselves together

But when one party has called the other out for a duel? I think I would rule that you aren't flat-footed and instead give the guy who wins initative something like maybe a +2 to hit and damage on the first round. This doesn't need to be a House Rule, it doesn't need to be written down and defined when it works and when it doesn't. It just requires that the DM look at the situation and say "ya know, the rules don't really cover this situation very well, lets try this instead".

It takes confidence as a DM but I think that it makes for a better game int the end.
 
I agree that although by the rules you're flatfooted until you act, it doesn't work well for a duel type situation where both parties are already aware of the other and in combat mode. The rule is much harsher in Conan than in regular D&D since in Conan you lose dodge & parry bonuses also; at higher level being caught flat-footed will almost always be fatal since you'll probably be hit by a finesse attack that bypasses your armour, take 20+ dmg and have to make a massive damage check.
 
I'd say that in a duel situation both combatants jump around feeling eachother up before leaping into an attack-parry-riposte pattern. i.e. they both hold their actions the first few saceonds giving eachother time to get into the game. Hence none of them will be flat-footed once the flashing steel starts to 'klang'! Cause they have both had the chance to act but declined to do so.

If, however you choose to just lunge the first thing you do when the bell strikes you are effectively trying to strike your oponent before he realise the game is afoot. In such a case you would roll for initiative as normal and I would allow the opponent to be flat-footed. One must ask however if this is the honorable way to duel?

Peace

/wolf
 
From what was said the winner was a pirate captain. I'd imagine he would have no problem striking before his opponent was quite ready ;)
 
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