Where are the Vacc Suits kept?

[IanBruntlett]

The majority of civilian ships don't have vacc suits, any more than modern airplanes don't have parachutes or modern automobiles don't have fire extinguishers. (Yes, you hear about vehicle fires, but that's just it - it's so rare that a vehicle fire is newsworthy.)

I've been told by a friend that as of 2012, cars in the UK require a fire extinguisher.

 

[rust]

The majority of civilian ships don't have vacc suits, any more than modern airplanes don't have parachutes or modern automobiles don't have fire extinguishers. (Yes, you hear about vehicle fires, but that's just it - it's so rare that a vehicle fire is newsworthy.)

I've been told by a friend that as of 2012, cars in the UK require a fire extinguisher.

There are a number of European states where either all cars or
some specific types of cars (busses, trucks with flammable car-
go, etc.) have to be outfitted with fire extinguishers, and unfor-
tunately burning cars after traffic accidents are not really that
rare.

Edit.: According to our police statistics, there are approximately
40,000 vehicle fires per year in Germany, about 10 % of these
are caused by arson, the remaining ca. 36,000 fires are caused
by various types of technical malfunctions or by accidents.

And as for the USA, the latest FEMA report has:

From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway vehicle fires
occurred in the United States each year resulting in an annual
average of approximately 300 deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1
billion in property loss.

 

[F33D]

And as for the USA, the latest FEMA report has:

From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway vehicle fires
occurred in the United States each year resulting in an annual
average of approximately 300 deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1
billion in property loss.

I have personally taken extinguishers to two vehicle fires. One was a parked car at a supermarket (grabbed the extinguisher from inside store). The other, I was leaving my office at night and a parked motor home got rear ended by a car. The motor home had two of those propane tanks on the rear. I used our office extinguisher but to no avail. Too much fuel. Both vehicles burned after a second tank exploded. Glad I ran like hell. Propane really burns hot.

 

[CosmicGamer]

Would you lose all the oxygen if there is a hull breach or would the deck plating at one G still hold it?

No, we create vacuum and other pressure differentials here, as well as natural differentials such as wind while under the same 9.81m/s^2, it is the pressure differential expressed in the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernoulli_differential_equation.

I do understand that. Well, not the whole equation but the overall concept of how gasses work at different pressures at the same gravity.

Lets go to the extreme just for an example. A container with artificial gravity of one G at one surface and it decreases to zero G on the opposite side. There is just one atom of air in the container.

Wouldn't the one atom of matter be always drawn to the side with one G?

Essentially isn't this what the earths atmosphere is. The earths atmosphere isn't in a closed container. A certain pressure and density at 1G and decreasing as you move further away until you get to zero G and vacuum.

I don't know if there is any real world way of testing density vs various pressure AND gravity. Maybe testing the difference in air density in different parts of a centrifuge?

With working gravity, a person wouldn't go floating away just because there is no atmosphere. I'm just thinking that good grav plating might hold that atmosphere in, at least some amount, even if open to space?

 

[F33D]

Lets go to the extreme just for an example. A container with artificial gravity of one G at one surface and it decreases to zero G on the opposite side. There is just one atom of air in the container.

Wouldn't the one atom of matter be always drawn to the side with one G?

Here's a SIMPLE test you can perform. Take really strong, closed container with air in it. Place it on the ground. Now, you have one G pulling the air straight down and NO G's pulling it UP.

Hook a sealed tube through the TOP of container hooked to a REALLY strong pump (create a vacuum). Can you pump the air out?

Now, if your container were let's say, a cylinder 150 km tall, it would be a different situation.

 

[dragoner]

With working gravity, a person wouldn't go floating away just because there is no atmosphere. I'm just thinking that good grav plating might hold that atmosphere in, at least some amount, even if open to space?

Essentially you are right in that it is the interaction between the mass of oxygen and gravity that creates pressure, the caveat is that it also influence by the density of air. Within a space craft, it is like a balloon, where the pressure is kept higher than the surrounding vacuum, with the lesser volume, the effects change (such as pressure is not due to a huge volume of air pressing down, but an air tight container).

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

In the ships locker close to the airlocks.

Traveller ships are tough nuts, on the rare occasions that they sustain so much damage so quickly that every department instantly depressurised, then the blast, fire, radiation etc will kill the crew quickly enough anyway.

Not sure the suggestions about that in military ships crews will be wearing vacc suits, submariners do not go about their tasks wearing diving suits, even in combat, though some of the higher tech vacc suits will be considerably easier to wear.

Egil

 

[F33D]

submariners do not go about their tasks wearing diving suits, even in combat,
Egil

That's because at the usual depth they operate, you're dead if the hull gets massively breached With or without diving suits. Might as well die in comfort.

 

[Wil Mireu]

Not sure the suggestions about that in military ships crews will be wearing vacc suits, submariners do not go about their tasks wearing diving suits, even in combat, though some of the higher tech vacc suits will be considerably easier to wear.

As F33D points out, diving suits won't really help much if a submarine is breached or sunk though. Spacesuits however can significantly increase survivability if there's a significant leak and decompression is ongoing. It doesn't take long for people's brains to become so dulled through lack of oxygen if there's a leak in an enclosed space that they won't be able to do anything useful to save themselves - the more you can minimise the time to get into a spacesuit, the better.

 

[F33D]

It doesn't take long for people's brains to become so dulled through lack of oxygen if there's a leak in an enclosed space that they won't be able to do anything useful to save themselves - the more you can minimise the time to get into a spacesuit, the better.

Correct. For explosive decompression in a vacuum that time is ~10 seconds. Time enough to flip your flexible hood over your head and then don your gloves that are in your pockets.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

If I am recalling correctly on modern ocean going merchant ships I think that they are required to provide "Gumby'-type survival suits in either a crewmember's berthing space, work space or somewhere in easy access to either. These kind of suits can be stuffed into fairly small carrying cases as shown below, and I can see something similar as being provided as an emergency survival suit in a Traveller type setting.

On a military ship I could maybe see that when at action stations maybe the crew might don a light weight coverall over their duty uniform, similar to how on modern warships crew don anti-flash gear etc, as shown below. In the event of a hull breach, the crew members could maybe quickly don a pair of gloves and a helmet to protect them.

I'm not fully sure where this gear is kept on a modern warship, but the info at the link below appears to suggest that some is stowed in the passageway near one of the ship's main DC lockers. So, I'd suspect that maybe on a Traveller type warship maybe stowing this type gear somewhere near the crews action stations might make sense.

http://www.damagecontrolmuseums.org/booklets/stowage/sec2/dcdeck.pdf‎

 

[dragoner]

Hi,

If I am recalling correctly on modern ocean going merchant ships I think that they are required to provide "Gumby'-type survival suits in either a crewmember's berthing space, work space or somewhere in easy access to either.

Yes, I remember that as well, they are called a "Dry suit": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drysuits

From the wiki it seems people do wear them while working:

Crew members who must work on the decks of commercial ships wear a type of dry suit also known as an immersion survival work suit. Single engine aircraft ferry pilots flying between North America and Europe, and helicopter pilots that must fly over the open ocean, must wear a survival suit in the cockpit, so they can continue to fly the aircraft, then exit immediately if the aircraft is ditched in cold water after an engine failure. These suits are also used on shore when working on docks, bridges, or other areas where cold water immersion is a safety risk. They are usually a three-part system consisting of:

A warm undersuit made of synthetic fabric designed to wick moisture from sweat generated by physical exertion away from the user’s skin.

A dry suit made with a waterproof breathable membrane to let moisture permeate out of the suit.

A durable outer shell, designed to protect the dry suit, and to carry tools and survival gear. The outer shell may also be equipped with an inflatable bladder to give the wearer additional flotation and freeboard when immersed.

 

[GamingGlen]

I wonder if all those layers might end up as the one-piece spacers' ubiquitous* "jump suit" at later TL levels.

And I'm reminded of Lindsey once again. I don't know what it is about that picture, but somehow Lindsey makes high tech vacc suits sexy. (page 214 of T20 core book) :wink:

* yay! I finally got to use that word in a sentence. :mrgreen:

 

[coldwar]

I've just read through this and something came to my mind.

In passenger aircraft you have life jackets in case you crash in the ocean or another water body. However the chances you ever surviving such a crash is so remote, that if you do ever survive, you just won the laws of physics lottery. Lol, excuse my pun.

So my point is, yes you may have all the equipment on board to survive. But chances are that you will likely not survive. Unless, of course, you are wearing your Vacc Suit at all times, and can wake up quickly enough if you are asleep.

And for me, personally, Vacc suits would be stored in the airlock. Though on a military ship, I think they would be wearing them at all times in or expecting war/battle/combat situations.

 

[PFVA63]

Hi,

Although Classic Traveller was my first role playing game, and I enjoyed it very much, I have to admit that thee was a lot of things in it that I never fully understood, which often made understanding the author's intent a bit difficult. And some/much of this seems to have made it into later versions as well.

One item in particular for me that I've struggled with is just what a starship would look like in terms of how its laid out and built. While most deck plans that I've seen typically just show stuff arranged in an overall space, to me, if I were trying to lay out what I though a star faring ship might look like, I'd probably break the hull into separate vacuum tight spaces including one for the bridge, one (or more) for the cargo holds and/or the main passenger/crew spaces, one (or more) for the machinery spaces, and one (or more) for the fuel tanks, etc. In the event of damage etc I'd assume that each of these could be segregated off from each other, and there may even be an airlock type access between these major subdivisions.

Additionally, depending on Tech Level, I'd think that there may be the possibility that the hull structure may be self-sealing against smaller penetrations and that there may either be the potential for the use of elements within the hull structure to enact temporary force fields or other stuff to try and provide temporary protection against larger breaches, all of which may impact how or when vacc suits are used and when.

Beyond this though, as others have noted, I probably wouldn't see people wearing vacc suits all the time, and/or vacc suits being skin tight as I don't think that this would be practical or really all that comfortable for the crew. As I noted previously, I would instead see military stuff as being something at least a little loose fitting that can be donned over a crewmembers general duty uniform when at action stations, and for civilian ships I'd expect something more along the lines of an emergency suit that can be donned fairly quickly.

Thinking more about this, most of this stuff I'd expect would be stowed in or near the crew's berths with maybe an emergency set also located in the bridge and machinery spaces etc.

 

[F33D]

One item in particular for me that I've struggled with is just what a starship would look like in terms of how its laid out and built. While most deck plans that I've seen typically just show stuff arranged in an overall space, to me, if I were trying to lay out what I though a star faring ship might look like, I'd probably break the hull into separate vacuum tight spaces including one for the bridge, one (or more) for the cargo holds and/or the main passenger/crew spaces, one (or more) for the machinery spaces, and one (or more) for the fuel tanks, etc. In the event of damage etc I'd assume that each of these could be segregated off from each other, and there may even be an airlock type access between these major subdivisions.

I've done that since CT days. Although I generally only have an airlock between engineering & whatever space it connects to. Force fields that would contain/restain air under pressure would be much higher than TL 15...

 

[AndrewW]

One item in particular for me that I've struggled with is just what a starship would look like in terms of how its laid out and built. While most deck plans that I've seen typically just show stuff arranged in an overall space, to me, if I were trying to lay out what I though a star faring ship might look like, I'd probably break the hull into separate vacuum tight spaces including one for the bridge, one (or more) for the cargo holds and/or the main passenger/crew spaces, one (or more) for the machinery spaces, and one (or more) for the fuel tanks, etc. In the event of damage etc I'd assume that each of these could be segregated off from each other, and there may even be an airlock type access between these major subdivisions.

Figure the iris valves are self sealing sections, regular hatches aren't.

Additionally, depending on Tech Level, I'd think that there may be the possibility that the hull structure may be self-sealing against smaller penetrations and that there may either be the potential for the use of elements within the hull structure to enact temporary force fields or other stuff to try and provide temporary protection against larger breaches, all of which may impact how or when vacc suits are used and when.

There is a self-sealing option, though not included on most ships some do have it.

 

[phavoc]

1st, I'm no expert in the sciences but isn't oxygen affected by gravity? Would you lose all the oxygen if there is a hull breach or would the deck plating at one G still hold it? I mean it's not like the earth is sealed, the 1 G holds the atmosphere. All the obvious reasons this would not be so are based on experiments where the pressurized and unpressurized area are both at the same G.

I've come up with the idea of a generic temporary suit, designed to fit a wide range of humans (available for other species as well) that would allow the wearer hours of use if they had to move through depressurized areas. Essentially its just a plastic suit, though tough enough to resist tears and short-term use, with a low-cost life support unit that's not really made to do much more than provide a breathable atmosphere for say 8-12hrs.

The term "generic temporary suit" and "just a plastic suit" gave me the impression of something cheaper and less effective than a vac suit. A standard vac suit only has 6 hrs of air.

Yes, for the emergency suits, I assumed a TL of 10-11 for them as the baseline. Today you can have a close-circuit rebreather system for military divers that allows you to stay underwater for 8hrs. I would assume that the increasing capabilities of the tech levels would also translate into better gear for a vacc suit. 6hrs is ludicrously low for the higher gear. This is another one of those 'house rules', that in my mind at least, make a sci-fi game a little more sciency.

A chief bitch of mine is that with each successive update to the game, or perhaps that's too generous of a description for the republication of the same material, is that rarely are things looked at and adjusted from the original 1970's assumptions. But I guess by not doing so it keeps the rest of us going strong sharing our views on the boards. And putting out our own supplements and such.

 

[Epicenter]

And as for the USA, the latest FEMA report has:

From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway vehicle fires
occurred in the United States each year resulting in an annual
average of approximately 300 deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1
billion in property loss.

As compared to about 254,000,000 cars in the US.

 

[F33D]

And as for the USA, the latest FEMA report has:

From 2008 to 2010, an estimated 194,000 highway vehicle fires
occurred in the United States each year resulting in an annual
average of approximately 300 deaths, 1,250 injuries and $1.1
billion in property loss.

As compared to about 254,000,000 cars in the US.

Yep. And if airliners had that horrible of an in flight record, they'd all be grounded.