Print on demand does not produce the range of options that proper printing does. If you limit the effectiveness of makers to low grade results, then there would still be other kinds of industry needed. But that doesn't seem to be the intent of the Maker tech. Though it is not particularly clear what the limits, if any are, other than size.
What's your goto tech?
- Thread starter Sheelba
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Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Then the setting needs to reflect that. Like has already been said.If they've been around 1200 years, they are probably common
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Remember, even something as fast as the adoption of automobiles, still took 20 years to make horses obsolete in cities. Wait a bit and the printing industry will likely cease to exist as well.We have print on demand currently and yet there is still a publishing industry. Not everything that makes perfect sense actually happens
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
We have print on demand currently and yet there is still a publishing industry. Not everything that makes perfect sense actually happens
I'm not sure how this applies to the statement I made.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
The Print-on-Demand Industry is relatively new. So, wait a few more years, maybe 10 to 30 years, and there will be no more printing industry, same as with the horse industry. Sorry. Perhaps I wasn't clear in My other comment. I have 2 6-year-olds climbing over Me. lol
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
In theory, automation will take over all low and mid level technical work.
Artificial intelligence programmes will direct them.
And going by current developments, that's tomorrow, not the far future.
That, however, does allow the maintenance of an industrial base, where the electorate aren't keen on what they consider unrewarding labour.
With that out of the way, we can consider the resources needed to maintain that level of industrial development, and how to advance it.
Artificial intelligence programmes will direct them.
And going by current developments, that's tomorrow, not the far future.
That, however, does allow the maintenance of an industrial base, where the electorate aren't keen on what they consider unrewarding labour.
With that out of the way, we can consider the resources needed to maintain that level of industrial development, and how to advance it.
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Charted Space was created to give the ability to play all your favorite 60s & 70s sci fi tropes. They should leave it for that and make another setting that does all your favorite 21st century sci fi stuff.Then the setting needs to reflect that. Like has already been said.
Trying to make Charted Space make sense with all these new additions is way more work than just publishing a new setting.
CordwainerFish
Emperor Mongoose
This, this, this. If I want cyberpunk, I remember which hole I dropped it down.
actionman
Emperor Mongoose
I knew what you meant, but I was talking about it being more efficient to ship fabricator feedstock to different worlds rather than finished products, and I'm not sure how the publishing industry still existing despite print on demand relates.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
Not sure I agree. Finished products are worth more per ton, than raw materials. Shipping costs 1,000Cr per ton per Jump-1. It would therefore be more efficient to ship the finished products. More money made and less spent on shipping.
I think we have been looking at this wrong in the previous discussion on manufacturing costs and trade. Fabricators require 10% to 90% the cost of the final item in feedstock. I just realized what that actually means. It means that the machines have 100% efficiency when turning raw materials into finished products. The 10% to 90% thing is the mark up on the item after production. (The MSRP if you will) Reflecting an 11%-1,000% profit margin. Plastic toys from Tiawan? 1,000% profit. Building and selling an office building, closer to 11%.
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actionman
Emperor Mongoose
Consider that if most worlds have fabricators which can produce the finished products, delivering feedstock would allow worlds to fabricate what they need locally, on demand so to speak, rather than ordering from a world which can produce them and waiting for the shipment. Also shipping finished goods would be less space efficient in the holds of cargo ships than feedstock which would probably have standardized container shapes. For example, is shipping an air raft in a cargo container with its packing material more space efficient than shipping standardized blocks/containers of feedstock in the same amount of cargo space? It would depend on the details, the destination world's fabrication capability, and the math. Worlds would of course have greater demand for finished products they can't produce locally, but worlds with robust fabrication capability would prefer feedstock, IMO. Why should they pay for finished products with the added cost of transportation, when they can buy the feedstock cheaper and produce the finished goods in their own fabricators? Even then it would come down to feedstock elements that the destination world doesn't have locally. It would be cheaper to import scarce feedstock elements and produce available feedstock elements and finished products locally.
but it's all just thoughts, none of this is defined.
MasterGwydion
Emperor Mongoose
I only can point out that the "feedstock-type goods" on the Trade table have much lower value/ton than finished goods but cost the same to ship.
Common Ore
Common Raw Materials
Uncommon Raw Materials
Precious Metals
Crystals & Gems
Those are what I am referring to for price comparison. The exception seems to be Agriculture. The finished product costs way less/ton than the feedstock.
Condottiere
Emperor Mongoose
Depends on whether the cargo needs special handling and environmental conditions during transport.
One would assume that a higher technological level would be more efficient in using raw materials.
And then you have recycling, in that thrown away materials can be converted back into some useful good, even if you have to deconstruct every molecule.
One would assume that a higher technological level would be more efficient in using raw materials.
And then you have recycling, in that thrown away materials can be converted back into some useful good, even if you have to deconstruct every molecule.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
Locally sourced raw materials; imported, licensed, and encrypted patterns.
Geir
Emperor Mongoose
I did go more into the cost of materials, fabricators, and older more conventional methods of manufacturing, but that's not core to the Vehicle Handbook, so for now, like the composition of military forces thing I sketched and then voluntarily cut before submission of the World Handbook, for now such things belong to a future supplement... or...
Hmmm... maybe I should list out my various infrastructure and empire-building type stuff, and figure out how to make it into a kickstarter... maybe then I could get some more enthusiasm for these ideas... or be proven that they don't gain enough interest to produce and end up in Vanguard hell.
Hmmm... maybe I should list out my various infrastructure and empire-building type stuff, and figure out how to make it into a kickstarter... maybe then I could get some more enthusiasm for these ideas... or be proven that they don't gain enough interest to produce and end up in Vanguard hell.
Terry Mixon
Emperor Mongoose
It is quite difficult to keep these threads coherent when it strips the previous comments, but here goes.
My point was that we currently have a fabricator type industry presently with print on demand. The quality is good enough, the margins are good enough and there is no technology blocker so I think it is mature enough to use as a comparator (otherwise we are limited to speculation).
The point i was answering was that if you had fabs why would you ever ship actual goods when you can ship feedstock. My answer was intended to show that there are more reasons for people wanting things than their physical characteristics (e.g. a book from a bookstore vs the same book printed on demand).
Maybe you want to support a particular bookstore (a system imports physical products from another system to maintain a trade balance despite it being cheaper to import feedstock).
Maybe you prefer the binding on the commercial version (a system exports physical products with a slightly higher production value than goods generated from the standard licensed pattern).
Maybe you just want to support the publishing industry and not all books are available print on demand (your species requires a particular specification that is not available from standard licensed patterns and you don't have the technology to create your own patterns)
Maybe you are just a dinosaur who doesn't like this new fangled nonsense (fabricators Bah Humbug).
Maybe you are a collector of first editions (You are a collector of hand crafted weapons and a machine produced one just won't do).
Last time you had a print on demand book it fell apart and took forever to get a replacement (a system very familiar with fabricating goods might do a better job of producing them than your own system that is still getting to grips with it)
There will be different use cases, but just because you can do a thing with a magic machine, it doesn't mean that some people wont still prefer a hand made/pre made version and thus trade in objects rather than raw materials need not vanish in a post fabricator culture. It will probably reduce as most people will still be driven by a cost consideration than anything else, but many of the trade goods are not that specific. Common Consumables could be food feedstock powders, grain or actual manufactured consumables.
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Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I'll stick with T5 makers over MgT fabricators.
A maker is a 3d printer+++
As to the Third Imperium, the TL15 high population industrial worlds manufacture the vast majority of the goods sold within the Imperium, and there is nothing a lower TL world can do about it.
Size - a maker can only make stuff up to a certain size, this may be ameliorated by making parts that are then assembled.
thing maker - has the widest range of maker sizes
ship maker shop - for spare parts, pus can act as a thing/gun/armour maker with the correct programs and feedstock
gun maker
armour maker
vehicle maker
synthetics maker - robots, cybernetic parts, clones, bioroids...
ship maker - limited to ACS.
Feedstock - the maker requires ingots of specific alloys, polymers, elements. Makers tend to make the least complicated version of stuff, but with the right programs and feedstock may make much higher quality stuff.
Specialised components - it is often much faster to have dedicated manufacturing for things like chips which are then used in the maker construction process.
Time - makers are not fast, it can take them a lot longer than a fabrication plant dedicated to manufacturing one particular item,
eg an ATV fabricator will make an ATV a lot faster and to a usually higher standard than a vehicle maker
Energy - makers use a brute force approach thanks to the plentiful supply of energy from fusion or fusion+, thus dedicated fabrication plants will produce cheaper goods.
A maker is a 3d printer+++
As to the Third Imperium, the TL15 high population industrial worlds manufacture the vast majority of the goods sold within the Imperium, and there is nothing a lower TL world can do about it.
Makers do have limitations.
Size - a maker can only make stuff up to a certain size, this may be ameliorated by making parts that are then assembled.
thing maker - has the widest range of maker sizes
ship maker shop - for spare parts, pus can act as a thing/gun/armour maker with the correct programs and feedstock
gun maker
armour maker
vehicle maker
synthetics maker - robots, cybernetic parts, clones, bioroids...
ship maker - limited to ACS.
Feedstock - the maker requires ingots of specific alloys, polymers, elements. Makers tend to make the least complicated version of stuff, but with the right programs and feedstock may make much higher quality stuff.
Specialised components - it is often much faster to have dedicated manufacturing for things like chips which are then used in the maker construction process.
Time - makers are not fast, it can take them a lot longer than a fabrication plant dedicated to manufacturing one particular item,
eg an ATV fabricator will make an ATV a lot faster and to a usually higher standard than a vehicle maker
Energy - makers use a brute force approach thanks to the plentiful supply of energy from fusion or fusion+, thus dedicated fabrication plants will produce cheaper goods.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I think it is the diffeence between a book published by a dedicated book printer rather then the pod versions - there is a considerable difference in quality beteen a book produced by a dedicated publisher and a pod printed book.
Sigtrygg
Emperor Mongoose
I agree to an extent, but I can also see how TL15 industrial worlds leads to the frontier feel of worlds beyond.
It is why you end up in a Western township, with laser rifles. An Amish community, with air/rafts flying overhead.
