What's the hubub about, bub?

[howardfanatic]

I regularly visit gaming review websites, and a lot of negative things have been said about Mongoose's Runequest system. Now that Chaosium has produced Basic Roleplaying, a lot of comparisons are being made between the MRQ and the BRP.
I own both books. Furthermore, I currently own every incarnation of the BRP ever published. You could say I'm a bit of a fan. In 25 years of gaming, only one system has excited me as much (Mayfair's DC Heroes).
So, I looked at MRQ and BRP, and I have to say-- what's all the hubub about, bub? There's not more than a page's worth of difference between the two. And what there is is, trust me, very easily altered (characteristic rolls and base % for skills were my two changes- took me, oh I don't know- 15 minutes and a single typed page...)
I think a lot of people are upset that Glorantha was not a bigger part of the rules set. I, for one, am glad. Glorantha's not bad, but it's never been a favorite of mine. I'm waiting on Hyborea, any way (see sig).
I also think that MOST of the bad press has been fanboys who feel that they were cheated in playtesting. In fact, about 1 in 3 reviews I've read preface their vague, non-distinct griping with vague, non-distinct griping about how they were playtesters and they were cheated, etc.
Whatever. I'm too old to be so petty.
Mongoose's Runequest is the best fantasy RPG on the market today. It isn't perfect- no, of course not- but it is so simple to work with that any imperfections are easily fixed. Try fixing D20... yikes...
I think a lot of MRQ's bad reviews boil down to hotheads who didn't get their way and decided to take the trash talk to the streets. I base this on my comparison between BRP and MRQ. The differences are very shallow, so if you like one enough to proclaim it the gaming Jesus, then you should like the other at least enough to give it a chance.
So, very, very , very long story short:
Thanks to Mongoose for producing an outstanding game.
Now.
Conan for MRQ.
Really- I insist.

 

[master of reality]

I agree. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much any problem with the system, such as the combat matrix, were rectified in the Game Master's Handbook. For the most part, critics of MRQ are just splitting hairs.
I also can't see how anyone would have an issue applying the rules to the Glorantha setting. I like the fact that the system can be applied to other settings.

 

[soltakss]

I regularly visit gaming review websites,

My commiserations ...

and a lot of negative things have been said about Mongoose's Runequest system.

Too much in many ways, but they did deserve some of the criticism about some of the supplements.

Now that Chaosium has produced Basic Roleplaying, a lot of comparisons are being made between the MRQ and the BRP.

And rightly so, even though they are different beasts aimed at different niches.

So, I looked at MRQ and BRP, and I have to say-- what's all the hubub about, bub? There's not more than a page's worth of difference between the two. And what there is is, trust me, very easily altered (characteristic rolls and base % for skills were my two changes- took me, oh I don't know- 15 minutes and a single typed page...)

Well, to my eyes there's a bit more than that between them. However, the differences are small enough to let pass. Characteristics don't need changing, skills could be changed but what's the point? If you want a base chance then use BRP's rules, if you want a variable base then use RQM's rules. Skill names are different but that's a no-brainer, you just need a comparison table and that's sorted. Combat is quite different, especially as BRP has 101 variants with its optional rules, but I tend to play RQ3-style combat which is close to the BRP style. Magic is different, but RQM's magic is similar enough to RQ3 to be familiar and BRP's magic is completely different so could be an add-on. RQM has Legendary Abilities and Hero Points, BRP has Hero Powers and Fate Points, you could use all these in either game.

I think a lot of people are upset that Glorantha was not a bigger part of the rules set. I, for one, am glad. Glorantha's not bad, but it's never been a favorite of mine. I'm waiting on Hyborea, any way (see sig).

I don't think that many people cared that Glorantha would be part of the ruleset. A lot of the people active on the BRP forum are those people who didn't like Glorantha, never gamed in Glorantha and thought that RQM would be the answer to the Gloranthan bias. In fact, RQM has had a huge Gloranthan boas and the Gloranthan output dwarfs the rest.

I also think that MOST of the bad press has been fanboys who feel that they were cheated in playtesting. In fact, about 1 in 3 reviews I've read preface their vague, non-distinct griping with vague, non-distinct griping about how they were playtesters and they were cheated, etc.

That's probably a better explanation. A lot of people btought their own ideas to the Playtest and were annoyed that they weren't included. Others were annoyed that rules that they had pointed out wouldn't work ended in the rules system and didn't work. Others were annoyed because there was a second playtest forum that was invitees only and they weren't invited.

Whatever. I'm too old to be so petty.

You are never too old to be petty.

Mongoose's Runequest is the best fantasy RPG on the market today. It isn't perfect- no, of course not- but it is so simple to work with that any imperfections are easily fixed. Try fixing D20... yikes...

I've always liked RQ and I'll always like RQ. RQM has its flaws but is a very good product. It is also well supported with a lot of supplements, third party support and an easy to use OGL licence.

I think a lot of MRQ's bad reviews boil down to hotheads who didn't get their way and decided to take the trash talk to the streets. I base this on my comparison between BRP and MRQ. The differences are very shallow, so if you like one enough to proclaim it the gaming Jesus, then you should like the other at least enough to give it a chance.

Certainly, I wouldn't pick BRP over RQM. BRP has some strengths - it has more support for other genres than Fantasy. It has Sci-Fi and Horror elements, for example, which RQM does not have. However, I would say that I prefer the RQM approach to many things rather than the BRP approach.

It is certainly possible to use the two interchangeably without much effort.

RQM has far more support than BRP and has a lot more supplements, so Mongoose are winning this battle hands down.

Thanks to Mongoose for producing an outstanding game.

Hear, hear.

Conan for MRQ.
Really- I insist.

Doubly hear, hear. The Conan stories were better than the Elric ones, I thought. Oops - you said Conan, not Corum, sorry.

Corum first, then Conan.

 

[AKAmra]

I don't have the MRQ core, but I do have MRQ Elric. The system is good, easily compatible with BRP and has gotten decent support.

I've been hoping Mongoose would publish a MRQ Conan for a while now. I''m still waiting and hopeful.

Stay out of the Conan forum though, there's currently an 11 page debate by d20 Conan fans that MRQ/BRP Can't Do Conan. :roll:

 

[howardfanatic]

Owning and having read every comic and novel ever produced with the character of Conan in it, and owning and having read every Robert E. Howard story and poem, and having been an obsessive fanatic about the man and his work, even going so far as to write 3 different collegiate papers on the mythological elements present in Hyborea, Conan as a modern American hero, and in defense of Howard being studied alongside Hawthorn and Defoe, AND having owned and read every BRP game ever produced, I feel that, by Ishtar's lusty loins, I am more qualified to make the MRQ call than perhaps any other person living today.
Not only CAN MRQ do Conan, but it was DESTINED to do Conan.
D20 is a fine game- especially for heroic games- and the Conan variant is an excellent product... but MRQ is a better game engine more suited to the gritty, dirty, desperate, and, above all: anti-heroic vision that Howard sought to create in Hyborea. In fact, the cynical anti-heroism of Conan is what differentiates him from Kull! (Roy Thomas made it heroic- not a bad thing, just a fact.)
No system but MRQ/BRP could do Lovecraft, Leiber, and Moorecock justice (witness the disastrous D&D and D20 stabs at those worlds), and no system but MRQ/BRP could do Howard justice! By this rule book I game!
Besides, I am not suggesting the D20 be abandoned. Only that dual stats be provided and a MRQ core be published.

Okay, I'm putting the soap box away. Reply if you like, to the positive or negative, but I have naught else to say.

But MRQ is at least as good as BRP.

 

[Sand Rodent]

How about these for a Testimonial:

As of this October I will have been roleplaying for twenty five years. For the past five years I have exclusively played historical games becuase I had lost my fantasy mojo. I purchased the BRP and it inspired me to try fantasy again. I then searched for the best fantasy system that I could convert/ integrate using the BRP. I chose MRQ.

I am married, have a child and a mortgage. I stay at home with my son during the day and work part-time at night. Even before the economic crisis I had little money for gaming. I searched for the best fantasy system currently on the market. I chose MRQ.

Inspired to play fantasy again after many years of historicals, I wrote twenty-five pages (and growing) of campaign material. Needing a system to use, I searched around online and in stores. I chose MRQ.

If you don't like a system, at least have the decency to not publicly deride it. A reasoned criticism is one thing but the frothing, "my system is better and your system sucks", just points to a lack of maturity and class.

 

[Da Boss]

I now have BRP, new version of Elric and Hawkmoon and all the old Chaosim / GW versions and meld them into the system I want..............

the D100 system is my fav system to run and play in - but neither BRP or RQ/Elric have it exactly right for me so I adapt them and they work fine

I find it extremely adaptable................

 

[howardfanatic]

Thanks to every one that replied.
Personally, I love the BRP system and always have specifically because you can heavily modify its rules and still keep it simple. MRQ is just another variant, like Call of Cthulhu, Superworld, and Nephilim. And like those, it is 90% compatible with all other BRP properties (well, Pendragon...)
I really don't have a problem with folks not liking the game and reviewing it thusly. My main gripe was the disproportionate number of reviews that were prefaced with something like "I was a playtester and it didn't go well. I'll not go into specifics... etc"
Why not go into specifics? Without telling exactly what went wrong and why, the review is invalidated. I have this English degree, see, and I fell like reviews presented as objective should contain this thing I call objectivity. Without specifics, it isn't a review, it is an opinion, and given what I have read, it is an opinion based primarily on experiences resulting from the playtesting and not on the merits and/or short comings of the system.
Is it a perfect system? No. But it beats what's in second. It is realistic, flexible, swift, and easily modified by the hundreds of rules variations in the many other editions of the BRP. That ease of modification is its greatest strength.
MRQ is a good- nay, by Set's Scaley Scrotum- a great game and it deserves to be reviewed on its own merit. I started this thread as place for people who have actually played the game to offer the creators some support and thanks. I think they did one helluva job and I'm sure they're tired of the bad press they didn't deserve.
Now. Back to Conan for the MRQ... I hear it is a licensing problem... By Crom, heads will roll!

 

[duncan_disorderly]

I think they did one helluva job and I'm sure they're tired of the bad press they didn't deserve.

Sorry. They split the rulebook up unneccessarily into several small, expensive hardbacks, rather than a single comprehensive volume. They changed the rules at the last minute but not the examples, so the two contradicted each other. They represented a 4x4 outcome matrix with a 3x3 table. They claimed that Glorantha was the "default setting", but then defended any criticism with "It's a generic rulebook". The Cults book (which again should have been a single volume) was written by someone who did not have access to the published rules (because of the aforementioned last minute rule changes) and then edited by someone who did not know anything about Glorantha.

They totally deserved an awful lot of their bad press....

Criticism based purely on the playtest experiences is probably unfair, but then Mongoose chose to conduct the playtest in a very public and very disordered manner, so in some respects they have to expect a certain amount of fallout

 

[Sand Rodent]

duncan_disorderly:

Sorry. They split the rulebook up unneccessarily into several small, expensive hardbacks, rather than a single comprehensive volume.

That problem is fixed since the Deluxe Edition came out. I have found it very useful and in no way lacking, save for a few minor editing errors.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

duncan_disorderly:

Sorry. They split the rulebook up unneccessarily into several small, expensive hardbacks, rather than a single comprehensive volume.

That problem is fixed since the Deluxe Edition came out. I have found it very useful and in no way lacking, save for a few minor editing errors.

Maybe, but I have an aversion to paying again to receive the material in the format it should have been released in to start with. (I would have waited for the deluxe edition had I known it was coming)

 

[howardfanatic]

The Deluxe book doesn't have the flaws you mentioned with editing. And again, I never said it was perfect. A rushed job it may have been, but it's still a great game. So some bad press, sure, but few mention the things wrong with the editing in the reviews I've seen. They are mostly offed about the playtest and the perceived BRP incompatibility. I was not in the playtest, but the game is as compatible with BRP as the rest of the BRP titles. BRP sort of has a annoying histry of being ALMOST compatible with itself. lol

As for three expensive books that must be replaced a little ways down the line...
You must have missed AD&D 2nd and D&D 3rd editions... To bring you up to speed: they both were very expensive and replaced in short order with better edited, even more expensive volumes later... Still three books, though, so no love there. Oh, and they also invalidated almost every rule presented in either version of either edition in the monthly rulebooks they proceeded to immediately put out after releasing either version of either edition. Best of all, they aren't backwards- or now, thanks to 4th ed, forwards- compatible! Awesome! :?

See also: Call of Cthulhu 5-6th ed, Elric/Stormbringer 4th ed, Shadowrun 2nd-3rd ed, Star Wars 1st- 2nd ed (in both D6 and D20 versions), etc...

My point is-- releasing a better version of the game in short order just to make sure we all meander out to rebuy what we already bought is practically what the gaming industry is based on. :roll: I don't like it any more than you do, but I am thankful that Mongoose at least fit it all in 1 volume, which is more than AD&D has managed to do in over 30 years, and that they did not invalidate every book that was released prior to the re-edit. MRQ Deluxe is actually worth the money.
Oh, and for the record, I did own the 3 books, and I was disappointed in them. I agree they were poorly editied. MRQ Deluxe is a great improvement. I appreciate the company fixing the problems and giving us our money's worth-- something neither TSR nor WotC (they're chief competitors) have ever bothered to do.

 

[duncan_disorderly]

As for three expensive books that must be replaced a little ways down the line...
You must have missed AD&D 2nd and D&D 3rd editions...

I've never played 2nd Ed AD&D at all. I had a 10 year break from AD&D just before 2nd Ed was released, and when I restarted, the group I joined were still using first. I had a brief flirtation with 3rd ed (pre 3.5) and have played some 4th ed too.
But regardless of the game, If the first book I buy is riddled with errors then I don't really see why I should encourage the producers in their laxadasical approach by spending more money on the corrections.

My point is-- releasing a better version of the game in short order just to make sure we all meander out to rebuy what we already bought is practically what the gaming industry is based on. :roll:

NO wonder it's in such a bad way then.
First impressions do count, and if the first book is poor it makes it less likely that subsequent books will be purchased.

I don't like it any more than you do, but I am thankful that Mongoose at least fit it all in 1 volume, which is more than AD&D has managed to do in over 30 years,

AD&D's books are not each < 100 pages though, and there is some sort of logic to the way that they are split - not just randomly splitting rules between titles.

I'd accept three books if they were

RQ Glorantha Core Rules (The rules from deluxe + Players Guide +background and without the non-gloranthan generic bits. Oh and with clear maps as well)
RQ Cults of Glorantha (The 2 Existing Cults books + Magic of Glorantha, all properly edited and corrected, and layed out in a much clearer fashion than the exsiting books)
RQ Gloranthan Bestiary - All the Glorantha creatures and none of the non-gloranthan ones - with illustrations (the Players guide bits about non-human PC's could go here rather than the core rules)

 

[howardfanatic]

I see your point, but I still think that offering a first edition that is not what it should be only to follow it up later by what should have come first is just something gaming companies do.
That said, the orginal MRQ books were not, in my opinion, so awful that they'd drive folks away. Nor did they deserve the cries of "Heresy!!" that resounded throughout the internet. While some reviewers did mention specifically not liking the format, MOST never mentioned any specific details of any kind that would explain why they hated the system. The most they offered was a bad playtest.
My whole point is that NO game deserves such petty non-sense. If you dislike the format-- okay, fine. I hate the 3 book format of AD&D, which is why I won't buy it (again). If you dislike the mechanics-- okay, fine. I think D20 as a system manages to encapture everything that sucked about Rolemaster and AD&D and turn those flaws into a morass of a miniature game.
However, disliking the people/company... seems a bit crazy. I mean, the guys running Guardians of Order were, for the most part, arrogant sacks of enema juice, but they put out pretty damned impressive games.
All I am saying is that a legitimate review is based on the merits of the product, not the people.
All that said, MRQ Deluxe is a game well worth owning and deserves high praise for its playability, flexibilty, realism, and value for the price. It is far better than its reviews would lead buyers to believe, and it is a vastly superior fantasy game for gamers that value ease of play (not to mention, being free of having to buy miniatures or have a laptop at the table) over rules minutiae.

 

[rabindranath72]

I am quite new to RuneQuest, I have played Call of Cthulhu for years (stuck to 3rd edition in italian) and then the old Stormbringer RPG, but seeing it now as a generic set of rules is a breeze of fresh air! In fact, I am converting my Conan d20 campaign (already strongly houseruled to remove all the needless crunch in the system) to a MRQ/BRP hybrid, and I hope it will work well. All the "races" in Conan d20 easily convert into the MRQ cultural backgrounds without problems, and the classes too are easily adaptable. For magic, I am going with Sorcery, with some added elements from Call of Cthulhu (like Sanity).

 

[Vagabond]

Elric/Stormbringer 4th ed,

Not to nitpick, but Stormbringer 4th preceded Elric! by a few years. I
think you meant Elric!/Stormbringer 5th. And, many find that Elric! is
much better organized and cleaner than SB5. There were also some
minor tweaks done...

-V

 

[howardfanatic]

You're right. I should know that, given that I own Stormbringer 5th and Elric!
Oh well, that just goes back to my point about game companies editioning us to death being business as usual. As much as I freakin' love Chaosium, they are among the worst offenders!
Still, as long as the quality is consistent, I will buy them. I'm a sucker like that.

 

[Vagabond]

You're right. I should know that, given that I own Stormbringer 5th and Elric!
Oh well, that just goes back to my point about game companies editioning us to death being business as usual. As much as I freakin' love Chaosium, they are among the worst offenders!
Still, as long as the quality is consistent, I will buy them. I'm a sucker like that.

Well, I wouldn't say it was "editioning us to death".

SB1 - 2 was basically an errata update and reprint, and they were 4 years
apart (1981/1985). SB3 was pretty much a Europe only version put out by
GW that combined the corebook and the Companion into one hardback
(1987). This would most closely resemble what Mongoose did with the
original MRQ book and the Deluxe MRQ book, but, as I said, was primarily
a Europe only version. SB1-3 are pretty much identical ruleswise. SB4
came out in 1990, 5 years after the last US edition. It changed how one
created and summoned demons, trying to codify it a bit more. Again,
almost entirely compatible with prior editions, with swapping demons
creation/summoning systems a possibility, or leaving earlier edition
demons as is. Elric! came out in 1993, a mere 3 years later. But this time,
the system was changed more signficantly. Rules were cleaned up and
streamlined some, the book was well organized, a new RQ Battle Magic
style system was introduced, etc. Again, backwards compatibility existed,
and the book had an appendix to help translate prior edition things over.
SB5 was released in 2001 8 years later. It added more fluff for the most
part, but also changed a few minor rules (mostly chargen) and corrected
some editorial issues. It is 100% compatible with Elric! and similar to Elric!
as far as backwards compatibility with prior editions.

So, over all, I have no problem with the versioning done. In essence, they
really only had 3 different editions over 20 years.

-V

 

[Christopher Graves]

This is an older thread but I want to put in my 2 cents.

The first post was right on the money for me. Anything wrong with MRQ can be easily fixed and even may have more to do with preference than serious bugs. This is even true for the opposed roll controversy.

The important thing is that Mongoose is keeping this game alive and even expanding its base. As an old time Gloranthaphile I think it is very important to attempt to attract younger players. Mongoose has the potential to do this.