What's the big deal about Glorantha?

iamtim

Mongoose
In another thread, Adept stated:
The cover should say Glorantha, not "generic fantasy".

Now I'll be the first to admit I've never been a Gloranthaphile. So bear that in mind as you read the rest of this post, and understand I'm donning my asbestos armor.

That said, part of the reason I never got in to Glorantha is because in all my readings (I have RQ3 Deluxe, Genertela: Crucible of the Hero Wars (or whatever that boxed set is called), Gods of Glorantha, and Troll Gods) Glorantha looked just like another fantasy world only more complex and with Talislanta-style "we're different from generic fantasy" tropes tossed in. Yeah, OK, dwarves and elves are different, as are trolls, and there are these dragonnewt things. Ok, there's lots of gods, and cults that support the gods, and the worshippers can call on divine interventions.

How is Glorantha NOT "generic fantasy"? It's certainly not that unique -- it's got dwarves, elves, trolls, gods, and magic... just like virtually any other fantasy world in existence. It's got a bunch of cultures that appear to be modeled on historical Earth cultures. It's even got the "cute little race" a la Middle Earth's hobbits and Dragonlance's kender: ducks.

I'm not trolling, I'm really not. I really just don't see what sets Glorantha apart from any of the other worlds out there, and I can't see what sets it apart from "generic fantasy".

So educate me.
 
Here's some quick things off the top of my head (before my morning coffee):

First, the single biggest thing about Glorantha is the depth of it. Sure it has elves, dwarves, and trolls, but they have deeply developed, thought out cultures, as do humans, of course. Elves and dwarves may (or may not, depending on POV) look like standard fantasy takes on such creatures, but unlike most worlds, they have drives, desires, cultural identies that are truelly alien: more in common with a hard SF alien race than a fantasy race or space opera alien race. The trolls are pretty unique to Glorantha. They've never been much like trolls from any other world and they are the best developed of any of the races with a complete culture, developed gods, cursed bloodlines, etc.

Just sticking with human cultures, there are a couple of unique things about the world. First, when I (most people?) think about a generic fantasy world, the first thing that comes to mind is a pseudo-medieval world. Simply by being based on much older cultures (Stone, Bronze, Iron Ages for the most part), Glorantha is different than most worlds out there. More important is the fact that these cultures once again are deep. There are entire lineages for kings and they aren't just lists. They're interwolven. Kingdoms aren't static in Glorantha. They rise and fall with a fluidity that's unique to the world. All of the RQ and HQ stuff to date is basically a snapshot of a single instant in the world, done for the benefit of making it more accessible. The more you dig under that, the more depth there is and it's coherent and logical (very unique amongst fantasy worlds), though follows it's own logic.

There are a handful of other worlds that are this deep or close to it, but none of them have had quite the success of Glorantha, so there's less info out there. Harn has lot of detail, but I've never gotten the impression of historical depth for it...though it may be there because I've only looked over the materials. Tekumel is up there with Glorantha, but less well supported over the years and because it moves so far away from cultural backgrounds that most of us can relate to, it's even more inaccesible. Those are all I can think of right now.

I mentioned recently elsewhere, that most fantasy worlds (no matter what genre) are just a backdrop for the PCs to do their thing in front of. That's not necessarily bad btw. However, in Glorantha the PCs interact with the world. It's as much in the foreground, under their feet, and in the skys about them as it is in the background. PCs are part of the world, rather than the world being something for them to act in against. I don't know how to phrase that well, but if you get to play with an experienced group in the world, you'll immediately see it.

Second, and perhaps more importantly are the way mythology, magic, and mortal interact. Glorantha is unique in that it's a world based on myth. Myth governs the laws of the universe directly. See above about logic. The deal in Glorantha is that mythology (acts of the gods) dictates why things are the way they are in the mortal world. Of course, part of the purpose of powerful people in the mortal world is to go about redefining mythology of the gods thereby changing the laws of the mortal world, usually in some small, but meaningful way.

The whole interaction between a person and their god, alone, is very unique. Gods aren't just there for a backdrop, again, but they're an integral part of every Gloranthan's day-to-day life. They magic they grant is necessary for people to even survive, while the worship of those people is necessary for the god to have representation (existence?) in the mortal world. I haven't found another fantasy setting where gods are so important and where there's a "realistic" take on how older cultures view their interactions with the gods.

The biggest thing that both of those do for me is to let me immerse in the world. The irony is that Glorantha is far more like the real world than most fantasy worlds are: hang with me a second here while I explain. Most fantasy worlds (even some very good ones) are worlds were people, and certainly PCs, have a modern world view. This is really where the "backdrop" part above comes from. The world looks pseud-medieval, or whatever, but it stays a backdrop because the important NPCs and the PC have a modern, rational world view. In Glorantha this isn't true. The cultures, from the lowliest farmer or herder to the ruling king and ermperor, are made up of people with an ancient world view and it naturally leads players through their PCs to look at things this way. The world works and reacts as if the worldview of ancient humans was correct, rather than as if the worldview of modern humans is correct with magic and fantasy creatures tacked on.

FYI, Talislanta is not a good comparison to Glorantha. I've bought a bunch of Talislanta materials lately. I love the 4th edition rules. The world is fine, but it lacks depth. I'm told this is intentional, to leave the details up to the individual GM and players. That's great for some, but for me I'd rather work on my own world if I have to add the details. Also, I don't like the fact that ever creature and plant is unique to the world. Not only are there no elves (though plenty of creatures far closer to a classic elf than anything in Glorantha, to stay somewhat on target), but there are no humans, no horses, no dogs, no housecats, etc. It's just lists and lists of creatures. Glorantha at least keeps the common names around and keeps most creautures linked to their realworld counterparts. That part is an unnecessary hurdle for getting into Talislanta IMO.
 
That's a long reply. :) I'll come back and read it fully when I have some more time, which is not now, heh. Real quick though, I want to clarify something that you brought up:

RMS said:
FYI, Talislanta is not a good comparison to Glorantha.

I wasn't comparing the two per se, I was just saying that to me they both have a "We're not generic fantasy!" feel to them, as if the authors were trying hard to not be Tolkienesque; Talislanta just happens to revel in it more than Glorantha (remember "No elves!"?)

So yeah, no comparison, just what I saw as a common thread.
 
RMS said:
Here's some quick things off the top of my head (before my morning coffee):

Wow!
Best write up I have seen about Glorantha for a while.

Glad you got it all in before your coffee or there wouldn't be any room left in the forum thread! :D
 
I guess the major things about Glorantha are the following:

1. Gods and myths. In Glorantha, the gods are integral and deeply woven into the fabric of the planet. In most other worlds, you have the world, and then a theology is set "on top of it". In the original version of Runequest, each cult had a reason for it's existence, and a reason for its continued existence, i.e., no gods are worshipped unless there is a reason for the god to be worshipped.

2. Bronze age. Most worlds are what I would consider "Middle Archaic" or "Late Archaic". Glorantha appears to be "Early Archaic" (Although perhaps "Late Early Archaic". This makes it stand out from the more advanced worlds like Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, and Kingdoms of Kalamar.

3. Rune magic. Magic is not just something people do, but this is also integrated into the world structure. It's different from most other worlds. Also, magic seems to be a lot more common in Glorantha than just about any other world (except maybe Eberron or Iron Kingdoms, which are comparitively newcomers and are designed to have a more industrial culture). IK, in particular, with their arcane mechanics, is somewhat similar to Glorantha's rune magic, except for supporting D&D-style magic and having steam engines and giant coal-powered robots walking around. Perhaps Eberrons house markings could also be considered similar. But people saw it in Glorantha first.

4. Seniority. Glorantha was one of the first RPG worlds to be published. In fact, it is older than the World of Greyhawk. Since it dates back to the 1960s, people are more aware of it than they are of a newcomer such as (to just give one example I am not very familiar with) Everstone.

5. Completeness. Most published worlds only define one continent, or even only one part of a continent. For example, practically everything published about World of Greyhawk has been regarding the Flannaes region, and the extremely sparse details about the rest of the world are contradictory and hard to find. Toril has other areas defined besides the Forgotten Realms, but these are obscure and I am not aware of anything providing a framework for linking these together. The Iron Kingdoms sources only hint at other continents. Glorantha is one of the few worlds where you can set a campaign anywhere on the world with some degree of confidence.

6. Vividness. This is kind of a subjective feeling. I feel that Glorantha and the Iron Kingdoms are more "vivid" than many other settings, such as Forgotten Realms and the Kingdoms of Kalamar. A lot of this is my own feeling for being able to identify with the factions: are they people with their own outlooks, or is it more like "X has been fighting Y for control of Z" with little attention to what makes X and Y different, or what the difference is who controls Z? I feel like if two of the kingdoms in the Dale fight over a river, who cares who wins? But if the Lunars and Sartars fight over a river, this is important, and the entire area will be affected by the outcome.
 
iamtim said:
In another thread, Adept stated:
The cover should say Glorantha, not "generic fantasy".

It's even got the "cute little race" a la Middle Earth's hobbits and Dragonlance's kender: ducks.

So educate me.
There are no hobbits in Glorantha, this was stated in the Delux RQ II boxed set's. 'Introduction to Glorantha'. They were published in the creatures book but that was a generic monster book.


Ducks are about as cute (in all official publications) as a crocdile with toothache.

Newtlings on the other hand...
 
homerjsinnott said:
There are no hobbits in Glorantha, this was stated in the Delux RQ II boxed set's. 'Introduction to Glorantha'.

I dinna say there were, lad.

I was saying that each "generic" fantasy world has a "cute little race" and cited Middle Earth's hobbits, Dragonlance's kender, and Glorantha's ducks as examples.

EDIT: I'm not comparing ducks, hobbits, and kender, either; I'm just saying they fill the same niche in their respective fantasy worlds.
 
iamtim said:
RMS said:
FYI, Talislanta is not a good comparison to Glorantha.

I wasn't comparing the two per se, I was just saying that to me they both have a "We're not generic fantasy!" feel to them, as if the authors were trying hard to not be Tolkienesque; Talislanta just happens to revel in it more than Glorantha (remember "No elves!"?)

So yeah, no comparison, just what I saw as a common thread.

Remember the "no coffee" part there. You're right. However, I'll add to this. IMO Talislanta does the whole "no elves" part specifically just to be different. Then it adds a bunch of fey creatures that are elves in all but name right back in. In fact that's my whole take on Talislanta so far: it goes out of it's way to be different, but only the names are changed. The world is still pretty standard S&S fantasy fare. Btw, I think it's a good world and I'd play in it. It just doesn't interest me to run. I've got my own world I'll run if I want something a bit different from stereotypical fantasy where I have to add the details back in.

OTOH, Glorantha is a world that is "different because it's different" and unique. The difference comes not from an artificial attempt to be different, but from the very fact that it goes about things differently than most fantasy worlds are built. It's from the ground up rather than just on the surface.
 
Darran said:
RMS said:
Here's some quick things off the top of my head (before my morning coffee):

Wow!
Best write up I have seen about Glorantha for a while.

Glad you got it all in before your coffee or there wouldn't be any room left in the forum thread! :D

Thanks! It wouldn't have gotten longer with coffee. I would have just been a little better organized and with fewer typos! :)
 
I agree on the Ducks - they're definitely a Gloranthan analogue of Hobbits, although with the usual unique twist.

Re: Tolkien, Glorantha wasn't developed to be different just for the sake of difference - it was developed to be different out of respect.

It's difficult to pin down exact "sell me on Glorantha" points, because you really do have to see the full thing, and how all of the bits and pieces fit together. And even if it's still not your cup of tea after that, fair enough, life would be boring if we all agreed on the same things, eh?

For me I suppose it's that everything feels real. Sometimes it's difficult to know if I'm reading a history book or a fantasy setting.
 
If you want 'hobbits' in Glorantha then look no further than the Esvulari in Heortland in Dragon Pass.

Not small in size or stature but have that same twee nature about them. Great to play and even adding dark elemants to the game did nothing. My character even walked around in a vampire's armour but still ended up too nice.
 
Most rpg worlds draw inspiration form fantasy fiction. Glorantha draws its inspiration from mythology. As a result everything that exists within Glorantha has been dragged out of a deeply spiritual and bottomless well.
 
Just passing through but must quickly add my tuppence worth. I like Tim am not a Gloranthaphile but have used and adapted a lot of it's material and am pretty familiar with the canon (Even tried reading 'King of Sartar'...yawn). Glorantha is not a standout special case fantasy world. It is a very, very, interesting and useful one. Harn can match it for obsessive detail (Check out the fan website Lythia!). For fantasy setting uniqueness and originality it falls far, far short of the likes of Skyrealms of Jorune and Tekumel (Gaze in awe at the Tekumel site!). For a sense of myth, history and magic embedded in the culture you can't really lick Ars Magica. This is not necessarily a bad thing it makes much of it's material adaptable to any world you make yourself. Early RQ2/3 supplement such as Pavis and the Big Rubble and Griffin Mountain/Island are fantastically playable benefitting from a rich setting and gritty feel. Later on, in a trend reminiscent of increasingly high level D+D, it gave in to enormous mythic hugeness, Dorastor/Strangers In Prax before going puff and turning into it's HQ incarnation.
MRQ's 2nd Age stuff sounds interesting because it's flyers suggest a rich fantasy world you can get into quite easily. I have no intention of doing a Greg Stafford worshiping rerun of the events leading to the 3rd age. I'll run it with my players (If I get the time) and it'll go our way..
 
Richard said:
Glorantha is not a standout special case fantasy world...

Oh, yes it is :)

Richard said:
It is a very, very, interesting and useful one. Harn can match it for obsessive detail (Check out the fan website Lythia!). For fantasy setting uniqueness and originality it falls far, far short of the likes of Skyrealms of Jorune and Tekumel (Gaze in awe at the Tekumel site!). For a sense of myth, history and magic embedded in the culture you can't really lick Ars Magica.

I'm prepared to defend Glorantha against all comers :) Tekumel? Interesting human cultures, but can't equal Glorantha's nonhumans. Harn? As detailed, but far less exotic. Ars Magica? Maybe a good look at one culture's mythology, but Glorantha has several.
 
gbaji wrote

Posted this elsewhere, but it's relevant here also: The Travels of Biturian Varosh

One of the best quick intros to Glorantha I've ever read.

Too right!! Brilliant little stories
 
Is Glorantha the best setting out there? I don't. It's hard for a guy like me to pick a favorite. If I did, I'd probably choose Ravenloft. :?

But Glorantha is certainly a good setting. Maybe it's the gal in the blue bikini on the cover of the 1980 Runequest book who sold me. (OTOH, I got sold on World of Greyhawk just looking at the map, but that was back in 1980, when good RPG materials were rare.) But certainly the level of detail in Glorantha is a selling point.

The most important (and most often overlooked thing) about a setting, is the question "What can you do there?" In the thread about what the cover to the Glorantha book should have looked like, I immediately came up with an idea. A setting that is rich in possibilities like that, that strikes up the imagination of things to do, places to go, and people/creatures to have conflict with is a good setting.
 
To me the nearest thing to hobbits in Glorantha are the Impala tribe.But are they cute?Ask anyone who ever been on the wrong end of their arrows of those little huns when they decide they dont like you.
 
Defend Glorantha Mark? It's not under attack dear boy there's plenty to like about it! But clearly this is subjective and it depends where you fight your battles. 'Tekumel non-humans can't equal Gloranthan ones' is a strange place to start though. In terms of shaking up fantasy conventions, which is the bit of thread I was picking up on comes in, the Pe Choi, Ahoggya, Hlaka and Pachi Lei totally outdo Glorantha's 'standard' races and have rich cultures to boot. Similarily, although with less published detail, the Shantha, Thiven, Bronth and, of course, the priceless Thriddles, of Skyrealms. Not a dwarf, elf or troll in sight in either setting!
Harn is definitely less exotic, kind of the point I think, but the aforementioned are altogether more exotic than Glorantha. Not necessarily a good thing in terms of their accessibility and success compared to Glorantha methinks. I agree that Glorantha bristles with gods, demigods, spirit worship, subcults and deities but when it comes to portaying cultures don't confuse quantity with quality. Quite apart from the huge range of different, and genuine, cultures in medieval Europe and it's hinterland Ars Magica's very core was the living out and exploring of these cultural values in an authentic setting.
Where Glorantha scored high was in giving a rich depth of background to it's foreground character races and put them in a gritty (Well originally), accessible and excitingly playable setting. Huzzah! Maybe it's one of several stand out cases?!
 
Richard said:
Defend Glorantha Mark? It's not under attack dear boy there's plenty to like about it!

Please note the :)s in my post.

But clearly this is subjective and it depends where you fight your battles. 'Tekumel non-humans can't equal Gloranthan ones' is a strange place to start though. In terms of shaking up fantasy conventions, which is the bit of thread I was picking up on comes in, the Pe Choi, Ahoggya, Hlaka and Pachi Lei totally outdo Glorantha's 'standard' races and have rich cultures to boot. Similarily, although with less published detail, the Shantha, Thiven, Bronth and, of course, the priceless Thriddles, of Skyrealms. Not a dwarf, elf or troll in sight in either setting!

The only thing standard about Glorantha's non-humans were their names. Their cultures and psychology are far more detailed than those of Tekumel of Jorune. In Tekumel's case, I actually believe that this is deliberate; the emphasis there is on the human cultures. Jorune never got off the ground in terms of published material, so it's hard to say what would have happened there.

Harn is definitely less exotic, kind of the point I think, but the aforementioned are altogether more exotic than Glorantha.

I still maintain that Glorantha is as exotic as anything they've got.


I agree that Glorantha bristles with gods, demigods, spirit worship, subcults and deities but when it comes to portaying cultures don't confuse quantity with quality.

Glorantha has both. Part of it's charm is how these cultures interact.



Maybe it's one of several stand out cases?!

No argument there.
 
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