What would you do to improve/change MGT combat system?

[vitalis6969]

Basically, IMHO, 2 seconds is too quick in stressful conditions, yes, if you have your 9mm magazine on the table infront of you, then 2 seconds is not unreasonable, but a more likely scenerio is in a middle of a firefight your rifle stops firing, you need to check that it is an empty mag, (and not some other kind of stoppage) then unload, then open your pouch/pocket/jacket, fish out a full mag (while checking that it is full, and that the top round is correctly fed and not not dirty (if American, you will probably want to bang the mag on your helmet as well! )), then load the magazine then ready the weapon, while at some point closing pouches etc. 6 seconds seems more reasonable.

Respectfully, if you have to dig around for a magazine (bolded part above) you are a moron and deserve to die the horrible death that is coming to you. (the character, not you ) Any full on dipstick who has his mags NOT in a ready format is asking to get a face full of bad day.

From stoppage of fire, to checking that there is no misfire, to dumping mag, to new mag in should take no longer than three seconds for a trained person.

I can, in real life, just did it actually to test it, draw my firearm, dump six rounds into my target, change magazines, then reholster in six seconds. It is REAL tight, and those six shots are NOT going to be my best, but I can do it.

Here is a video that shows the high end of how good it can get, the average Joe is a bit slower, I know I am. I've talked to these guys over on the lightfighter forums quite a bit and over at the arfcom cesspool/hive I hang out at regularly. Out of these guys a couple are .mil, a couple are LEO, and the rest are average joe civilians that like to shoot.

Oh, and all the guns are semi automatic. No full auto at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcT1mw0i4fE

 

[vitalis6969]

Your comments about your target practice are interesting, we tend to aim more at more distant target, while at close range most of us shoot instinctively and more quickly. Not sure how to represent this, other than by the current aiming rules, without massive over complication.

Egil

I totally agree sir, it would be a nightmare... :evil:

Not sure yet how I'm going to work it, don't have any real time off of work till the end of the week, unfortunately I'll have to wait till then.

-V

 

[vitalis6969]

Egil,


One last comment, that I kind of alluded to in a previous post, but then forgot to follow up on, is how/why dexterity impacts a characters ability to handle damage.

Just look at is as a degradation of manual dexterity as you get wounded. The more screwed up you are, the less crisp your actions are.

Its just the mechanic they are using that makes it look like dexterity = hit points....

-V

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Basically, IMHO, 2 seconds is too quick in stressful conditions, yes, if you have your 9mm magazine on the table infront of you, then 2 seconds is not unreasonable, but a more likely scenerio is in a middle of a firefight your rifle stops firing, you need to check that it is an empty mag, (and not some other kind of stoppage) then unload, then open your pouch/pocket/jacket, fish out a full mag (while checking that it is full, and that the top round is correctly fed and not not dirty (if American, you will probably want to bang the mag on your helmet as well! )), then load the magazine then ready the weapon, while at some point closing pouches etc. 6 seconds seems more reasonable.

Respectfully, if you have to dig around for a magazine (bolded part above) you are a moron and deserve to die the horrible death that is coming to you. (the character, not you ) Any full on dipstick who has his mags NOT in a ready format is asking to get a face full of bad day.

From stoppage of fire, to checking that there is no misfire, to dumping mag, to new mag in should take no longer than three seconds for a trained person.

I can, in real life, just did it actually to test it, draw my firearm, dump six rounds into my target, change magazines, then reholster in six seconds. It is REAL tight, and those six shots are NOT going to be my best, but I can do it.

Here is a video that shows the high end of how good it can get, the average Joe is a bit slower, I know I am. I've talked to these guys over on the lightfighter forums quite a bit and over at the arfcom cesspool/hive I hang out at regularly. Out of these guys a couple are .mil, a couple are LEO, and the rest are average joe civilians that like to shoot.

Oh, and all the guns are semi automatic. No full auto at all.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xcT1mw0i4fE

Good Drills!
You and the folk on utube. I think I was over stating the problems, over the years, as well as very slick drills, I have seen fumbles, bizarre cock ups and things you would struggle to believe (like someone ramming a magazine in backwards) as well, suppose I was splitting the difference and so drawing out reloading to allow an average between the moron and the able. Think I will go with Apoc 527's idea of taking weapon skill into account.

Could see it was all semi-auto fire, note that Apoc and I have both put forward similar rules to allow rapid fire. It was clearly aimed, but the ranges were very short as well.

Egil

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

Egil,


One last comment, that I kind of alluded to in a previous post, but then forgot to follow up on, is how/why dexterity impacts a characters ability to handle damage.

Just look at is as a degradation of manual dexterity as you get wounded. The more screwed up you are, the less crisp your actions are.

Its just the mechanic they are using that makes it look like dexterity = hit points....

-V

Agreed

Egil

 

[vitalis6969]

Good Drills!
You and the folk on utube. I think I was over stating the problems, over the years, as well as very slick drills, I have seen fumbles, bizarre cock ups and things you would struggle to believe (like someone ramming a magazine in backwards) as well, suppose I was splitting the difference and so drawing out reloading to allow an average between the moron and the able. Think I will go with Apoc 527's idea of taking weapon skill into account.

Could see it was all semi-auto fire, note that Apoc and I have both put forward similar rules to allow rapid fire. It was clearly aimed, but the ranges were very short as well.

Egil

Yeah, I think skill level should be tied into it somehow. Skill 0 is rudimentary knowledge, levl 2 medic makes you a Doctor, level 5??? You are so full of win that everything you do is like the angry fist of a God... I'm exaggerating the last one, but you get my point... :wink:

And yeah, I have certainly seen some weapon fumbles that were pretty memorable. Might almost make the player roll their weapon skill for a rapid under stress mag change that only takes a minor action. Two minor actions otherwise... hmmm, going to have to work on that.

-V

 

[rinku]

Egil,


One last comment, that I kind of alluded to in a previous post, but then forgot to follow up on, is how/why dexterity impacts a characters ability to handle damage.

Just look at is as a degradation of manual dexterity as you get wounded. The more screwed up you are, the less crisp your actions are.

Its just the mechanic they are using that makes it look like dexterity = hit points....

-V

Smack upside the head causing dizziness and lack of co-ord = Dex hit
Sucking chest wound = End hit
Shattered wrist = Str hit (*You* try to apply your full strength in most situations with only one hand, especially if it's your preferred one )

One of the reasons I'm wary of hit locations being added to Trav is that the existing wound rules do provide a variety of dibilitating effects without further complication being needed. Referee can always rule that a particular wound is a broken leg or cracked rib or concussion if they want it to have consequences in the game or to add colour.

Edit:

Blast. This got me thinking. You could neatly combine hit location with stat damage and partial armour coverage and cover mods. Try this:

1. Roll hit location on 1D6: 1-2 Limb, 4-6 Body, 6 Head. For every -2 taken on the roll to hit, the location can be increased or decreased by 1.

2. Subtract armour from the damage rolled, including armour value of any cover obscuring the hit location. Some armour (such as a half helmet, or cover that only obscures the belly and legs) may only provide partial protection, in which case determine the proportion of cover out of 6 and roll 1D6 to see if it protects.

3. Apply Limb damage to Str, Body damage to End and Head damage to Dex. Excess damage is applied to other stats at player choice as usual.

Example: Freda is wearing a flak jacket (AV8) that covers her torso and upper arms, with a helmet (AV6) that leaves her face exposed. She is behind a concrete corner (AV20) and shooting at an enemy, exposing half her body, her right arm and leg and her head. An incoming rifle round (3D6) hits her, and rolls 2 for location. Rolling for the cover on 4+, a 3 is rolled, so her exposed arm is hit. Rolling for her personal armour, which covers about a sixth of her exposed arm and leg , on a 6+, a 6 is rolled and so she subracts 8 from the damage rolled (13) and takes a 5 point wound to her Strength.

 

[BP]

How many rolls is that? :?

(For online games, I'm currently trying to reduce rolls to one for hit and damage and one for 'wound' when necessary.)

 

[rinku]

How many rolls is that? :?

(For online games, I'm currently trying to reduce rolls to one for hit and damage and one for 'wound' when necessary.)

Depends on coverage. In many cases it's only going to be one to determine hit location. (i.e. the armour worn gives 100% coverage to the locations covered with no cover involved). You can also ignore it for NPCs or to speed things up and assume torso hits like basic does.

 

[Charakan]

That's a sweet and slick little hit location system rinku.

 

[rinku]

Thankee. I give full credit to HERO and GURPS for most of it, though.

 

[Sturn]

Blast. This got me thinking. You could neatly combine hit location with stat damage and partial armour coverage and cover mods. Try this:

1. Roll hit location on 1D6: 1-2 Limb, 4-6 Body, 6 Head. For every -2 taken on the roll to hit, the location can be increased or decreased by 1.

2. Subtract armour from the damage rolled, including armour value of any cover obscuring the hit location. Some armour (such as a half helmet, or cover that only obscures the belly and legs) may only provide partial protection, in which case determine the proportion of cover out of 6 and roll 1D6 to see if it protects.

3. Apply Limb damage to Str, Body damage to End and Head damage to Dex. Excess damage is applied to other stats at player choice as usual.

I had something similar in an old post:

I've been playing around with a MGT damage house rule based on an old damage system of mine. Haven't got it all hashed out, but something else to consider.

Strength damage represents actual tissue damage. If STR reaches 0 you are dead.

Endurance damage represents stun or shock damage. If END reaches 0 you are unconscious.

Dexterity damage represents another sort of stun damage, paralyzing damage, limb wounds, or grappling holds. If DEX reaches 0 you can not move, but are conscious.

The biggest thing to consider would be how the damage is divided between the 3 characterisitcs. Player choice creates problems if you delve deeper. I'm considering that a player must allocate damage 5 points at a time as groups of damage (it can't all be spread out).

If you ever wanted to add hit location, such a damage system has some other benefits - head shots tend to do more End and Str damage, body shots more Str, and limb shots more Dex. You could say that a shot to a limb must allocate half of the damage to Dex, for example.

If you want a system where non-penetrating damage does have some results, you could add that it can't cause Str damage.

Some weapons, such as a stunner, might do only a combination of End/Dex damage.

Sorry, I rambled.

 

[rinku]

There's certainly room for varying interpretations on location -> characteristic. A leg hit won't affect shooting much, but has a big effect on dodge.

With allocating damage in lumps (which I support), perhaps return to the classic rule of applying dice groups? Make it that any plus or minus is applied first vs armour, then the dice rolled from lowest to highest. Allocate the largest value that penetrates to the basic stat with the others allocated by the player. So:

Horace is hit by 3D6-3 in the chest, which has 3 points of armour, dice are rolled as 3, 4, 5. The -3 mod effectively adds 3 points or armour (as it does under normal rules) and the 3 point hit and 3 points of the 4 point hit are discarded. A 1 point hit and a 5 point hit penetrate; the 5 pointer goes on End, the 1 pointer can be applied anywhere.

Due to effect, Horace now gets hit (again in the torso) by 3D6+2, rolling 2, 4, 4. Armour is reduced to 1 point and comes off the 2 pointer. He takes 1, 4, 4, with 4 points coming off End and a 4 point and a 1 point wound to allocate.

(This is quite rough and ready. Might be that armour should come off the largest roll first?)

 

[Egil Skallagrimsson]

One or two rolls too much for me, rinku's suggestions are straightforward, and as simple to use as a hit location system is likely to get, but I don't really want the delay of another die roll. Probably just too impatient!

Can see the thinking behind Sturn's post suggesting different effects of 0 points in diff physical characteristics, but the current damage system already allows for differing outcomes. In any event, it might be taking the str/dex/end scores a little too literally, they are all supposed to be a measure of bodily health.

Heres something that I have thought about, but have never quite brought myself to inflict on characters, if a character suffers a serious wound, he must roll on the "Injuries" table from character gen (page 37). this has no immediate effect, but the characters healthy score in that attribute is permanently reduced. Obviously, in higher techs cybernetic arms etc are available to offset the loss of characteristics, but at a cost. I can't be the only GM who has thought of this, does anybody apply it?

Egil

 

[BP]

IMTU, damage is described and roleplayed - so injuries like loss of limbs can result in 'permanent' reduction of stats to such time as they are replaced (cybernetics or re-growth). Such generally restores full functionality (additional in the case of augments) over time as I treat 'relearning' as a healing process.

 

[srogerscat]

Hit and damage as one roll. Hmm. Perhaps starting damage for one point per weapon D of damage for a hit that meets the success number, plus one additional point of damage per D of weapon damage for every point over the base hit number. Frex: 3D pistol, hit number is 10+, modified roll is 13 equals 12 points of damage. A 4D rifle would be 16 points.

 

[hdan]

Though I grew up with CT's "armor just makes you harder to hit", you got into some really crazy situations, like assault rifles being unable to miss unarmored opponents at medium range.

One idea I've thought about is if you can score an effect greater than the armor value, you penetrate that armor. Otherwise, the effect is discarded and you subtract armor from damage unmodified.

This makes super high-powered weapons and armor less dependent on individual skill (cuz you're not going to score an effect high enough to punch through battle dress), and helps flatten out the damage curve some. This one would be fast to run - throw your attack, see if effect pierces armor, roll damage and if attack didn't penetrate, subtract armor from damage.

AP rounds would double your effect or add +DM to your effect (not to-hit; you still have to hit, you just get an effect boost if you do hit) to make penetrating armor easier.

Rounds that don't penetrate and can't do enough damage to beat the armor would be ineffective. No sense wailing away on Combat Armor with an Autopistol; you're not going to get through unless you get some sort of phenomenally lucky shot.

(Maybe say that a 6+ effect can penetrate any armor, just to keep the fun in the system.)

 

[BP]

Hit and damage as one roll. ...

Its a change I am contemplating to reduce one roll in PbP online games - and, more importantly, since I calculate the DMs - reduce extra posts (I could have players roll assuming damage or just roll for them - but that has bad mojo when 'good' rolls appear wasted or I appear 'unlucky' on their behalf - or ends up in confusion or pre-cognition 'saving' die rolls).

Toying with figuring damage by simply multiplying effect +1 by normal weapon damage dice number (so 4d6 = x4, 3d6+3 = x3.5), subtracting armour as per normal.

This has 2 major side effects - damage is more discrete (i.e. comes in packets) and the normal additive bonus of the effect is changed. The damage 'curve' penalizes lower effect rolls (3 or less) a bit, but provides greater benefit as effect becomes higher (expert marksmen) - noting that this will vary by damage dice.

Ex: damage (before subtracting armour) from a 3d6 weapon with:

• effect of 0 = 3 (normally 3 to 18 medain 9-12 )
  effect of 1 = 6 (normally 4 to 19 median 10-13 )
  effect of 2 = 9 (normally 5 to 20 median 11-14 )
  effect of 3 = 12 (normally 6 to 21 median 12-15 )
  effect of 4 = 15 (normally 7 to 22 median 13-16 )
  effect of 5 = 18 (normally 8 to 23 median 14-17 )
  effect of 6 = 21 (normally 9 to 24 median 15-18 )
  effect of 7 = 24 (normally 10 to 25 median 16-19 )
  effect of 8 = 27 (normally 11 to 26 median 17-20 )
  effect of 9 = 30 (normally 12 to 27 median 18-21 )
  * normal is min. to max. and median is ~48% of 3d6 rolls

In tabletop games, it could come in useful to 'hide' DMs and damage from players - removing some of these metagame aspects of gaming from the RolePlaying and avoiding squabbling over DMs...

(For my tabletop games I am going with a WIP homebrew 3d6 system that radically departs from MgT...)

 

[rinku]

I just got an eerie flashback to Tunnels & Trolls. That also had "everything in one roll" for the same reason (though it was play by mail back then).

 

[Sturn]

The original "Beta" of Mongoose Traveller did have damage and hit in one roll. Effect was pretty much your damage die score, with Effect ranging from 1 to 6 (a weapon with 3X+2 damage with an Effect of 3 caused 11 damage). After much debate on these forums, it was tossed. I still use it in a modified form that I think fixes some of the task system issues.