What we, the players would like to see in SST:WotS

[MaxSteiner]

Which is why I don't like Evo
(Especially if the rational is no counters on the board lol)

I think I understand what your saying now though. Multiple reactions wont work in evo, because all the checks and balances have been removed.
But I've never had a problem with them in V1, and think they add alot to the cinematic feel (Which I still don't see in the Evo rules).

Out of interest Paladin did you play much V1 SST, or are you just really into Evo?

==========> Edit:
What I really want to see in Evo is a release date!!!!!!!!!
(Although I suppose I wont be playing it if the rules stay the same, at least I can see the new improved sculpts...)

 

[Paladin]

Out of interest Paladin did you play much V1 SST, or are you just really into Evo?

I've read SST v1, but only played with the SST:Evo version, having been drawn to Mongoose initially through BF:Evo. I've been going through and comparing stats/abilities and the general game play and I see pluses on both sides. I'm a long time BattleTech player so I'm not scared of complexity. :lol: However, I also know that complexity can frustrate new players and bog down game play unnecessarily.

With regard to v1, I really like the flexibility of force design and attributes of the v1. I think that needs to return to a certain degree in Evo. Though in a method of greater clarity/simplicity, via separate cards that are supplemental to a base squad. When you cram all of the v1 stats on a card you get sensory overload for players. Always start simple and build up.

Ammo to me is an area that should be of little relevance unless it is totally expended and no longer available for the rest of the game. Putting tick marks on my recordsheets to burn ammo is not massive recordkeeping and has never been an issue in any game. Reloading MGs should be built in to the standard function of a shoot action, it doesn't take long enough to drop and slap a new magazine and rarely does an entire squad run out at the same time. Slow rate of fire weapons like, missiles, obviously the load time is longer and should be an issue and is handled well by simply denying multiple shots per round or use during reactions. It shouldn't require a Ready action.

 

[Goldwyrm]

Out of interest Paladin did you play much V1 SST, or are you just really into Evo?

I've read SST v1, but only played with the SST:Evo version, having been drawn to Mongoose initially through BF:Evo. I've been going through and comparing stats/abilities and the general game play and I see pluses on both sides. I'm a long time BattleTech player so I'm not scared of complexity. :lol: However, I also know that complexity can frustrate new players and bog down game play unnecessarily.

Parallel with my interest in SST, I've been watching what seems to be a successful resurgence in Warmachine locally. I've even started playing in the local league, and I'd mostly stayed away from tournament play after 2nd Edition 40K. One thing I've learned is that no matter how simple and easy people want a game, they ultimately always seem to be drawn to the games with more options, more power combinations, etc. I actually liked the fact that for the most part SST V1 provided almost everything upfront. No power spirals, just lots of choices from the start. The army books for SST are not over the top and do not feel better than each previous book.

With regard to v1, I really like the flexibility of force design and attributes of the v1. I think that needs to return to a certain degree in Evo. Though in a method of greater clarity/simplicity, via separate cards that are supplemental to a base squad. When you cram all of the v1 stats on a card you get sensory overload for players. Always start simple and build up.

My group in our SST V1 games seems to prefer using quick reference sheets over cards, even though I went through the effort of printing out Hiromoon's cards and laminating them since I think they look really great. From playing Warmachine I find I don't really care for the tabletop look of a dozen cards spread out on each players back table edge. I find I waste time finding the right card when all that stuff could be on a single or double sided page. I'd prefer cards be an optional add on for a SSTV2.

Ammo to me is an area that should be of little relevance unless it is totally expended and no longer available for the rest of the game. Putting tick marks on my recordsheets to burn ammo is not massive recordkeeping and has never been an issue in any game. Reloading MGs should be built in to the standard function of a shoot action, it doesn't take long enough to drop and slap a new magazine and rarely does an entire squad run out at the same time. Slow rate of fire weapons like, missiles, obviously the load time is longer and should be an issue and is handled well by simply denying multiple shots per round or use during reactions. It shouldn't require a Ready action.

Out of ammo really just represents the end of reaction fire for that model since the marker is removed and the model can fire in its own turn. I take it to be anything that stops the model from firing again. That could mean getting sun in their eye, hesitating, dropping a magazine, getting a jam, etc. I suppose they could have named it something else but it works.

Ready actions for some weapons are helpful to set them apart from weapons that can be used while jumping. I like ready actions. It took us a game or two to get used to it but I like it. I actually like 97% of SSTV1 because it feels different than 40K, Warzone, Shockforce, Warmachine, and other Sci-fi or Fantasy skirmish games I've played. The other 3% is really just a need to better clarify some of the rules.

I generally don't like markers on the table. However I wouldn't take away some great and unique rules in a game like SST V1 simply to eliminate markers.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Well to be fair the ammo rules only ever really come up on Moritias durring reactions

I agree about having squd upgrades, thats quite a fun part of the game (Infact writting army lists/mechs/cars/etc is a big part of wargaming lol), and I could see it working on the cards, but those need sorting out majorly before anything is added to them... infact

=======> PUT TRAITS BACK INTO EVO!!!!! Saying that its easier for new players doesnt work if the cards cramed ful of unreadable text. Even Heroclix uses a traits system, it just comes with a sheet of paper with the explinations listed, learn from yur compeitors, it'll clean up the cards no end...<========

Anyway back to the post... I personally think that so much has changed in evo (Normally little things) that the balance effectivly makes it a new game.
If its aimed at a younger/less experianced market then it should exploit it full wack. The Evo rules have been in development years now, they oughta be ready to run with by now.
The Advanced rulebook should be advanced though. Theres no point reprinting the 4 page rules over 60 pages, sticking in the air phase and the old tunneling rules and calling it a day.
I like your veteran idea come to think of it. If Evo is to be the one reaction system (A squad reaction at that ugh....), a veterancy upgrade for more reactions makes sense.

Still this is all conjecture without knowing what Mongooses plans are

 

[darklord4]

Ammo to me is an area that should be of little relevance unless it is totally expended and no longer available for the rest of the game. Putting tick marks on my recordsheets to burn ammo is not massive recordkeeping and has never been an issue in any game. Reloading MGs should be built in to the standard function of a shoot action, it doesn't take long enough to drop and slap a new magazine and rarely does an entire squad run out at the same time. Slow rate of fire weapons like, missiles, obviously the load time is longer and should be an issue and is handled well by simply denying multiple shots per round or use during reactions. It shouldn't require a Ready action.

Ammo was only an issue when shooting as a reaction, and even then it was just to keep the unlimited reactions in check. You didn't track ammo like in Battletech, you just 'ran out' if you rolled a 1 when shooting as a reaction and then that model could no longer shoot as a reaction that turn. In EVO you still run 'out of ammo' as you seem to be out after your one reaction.

As far as battlefield clutter, I still put markers down on units that reacted in BFE.

With the one reaction, you also have to think whether you want to use it or not as there may be a better use later. It is a reaction, not a time to think.

The only real advantage I see to the EVO reaction system is that it simplifies the reactions to units instead of models. Instead of measuring which models could react each time bugs close in, you just react the whole unit. You get more action from your reaction, but you get only 1. Maybe the ammo rules could be modified for unlimited unit reactions, possibly running out of ammo on a 2 or 3 or less and you just count up ammo losses that reduce the number of troopers in your unit that can react. You reduce clutter of ammo markers per model, to a D10(or appripriate sized dice or change for bigger units) counting up how many members of a unit have run out. You could also reduce the FZ placement to what is in reaction range, e.g. 10". You'd also have to lose the Armorer special trait, possibly one of coolest traits from V1, or make it much more expensive.

 

[MaxSteiner]

Great minds think alike

 

[Gauntlet-]

So I don't want to get dragged into the argument, I'll just post what I want:

2 Reactions Standard.

I think that is as close as you will get to making people happy, it leaves room to acknowledge both greater and lesser units. For Example I would give Pathfinders 3 reactions.

Get rid of the ammo rules and flinching, it slows it down more than infinite reactions ever did or will.

Suppression is great, with some detail and options all those MI commanders could mess around with this area a bunch and it could be very cool.

Fix AOE, bring back flamer templates, the old arty deviation was great.

 

[CaseyGMU]

I feel that the issue of reactions, whether multiple or one, comes down to the heart of Starship Troopers.

Multiple reactions, I feel, best represent the battle of MI against Arachnids. It makes the game incredibly fluid and I love the feeling of bugs constantly moving forward to the MI's constant barrage of fire. It gives a great feeling of the Unmovable Object being struck by the Irresistable Force.

After playing BF:Evo, a lot mind you, I think multiple reactions would end up feeling silly in a modern military game. It also feels a bit silly when MI fight MI, such as my Arab Nationalist Secession Army of the Planet Sobek, or when MI fight Skinnies or any new more traditional type armies come out. Having units zip around the battlefield or unable to react to reactions, it makes little sense that a PAMI squad could jump into the air as a reaction and not be fired upon, doesn't really jive with my sensibilities.

For me it comes down to the game either focusing on MI v Bugs or it trying to be more. I dig the Skinnies and I like MI v MI and so far I really like the idea of going to a one reaction system with special units getting multiple reactions. Or even having commander figures like in BF:Evo granting one additional reaction to the army and other things like that.

Which isn't to say I don't like v1 of the rules, I like them very much, but it just seems to me that they break down a bit with two armies that shoot at each other.

 

[Galatea]

Hence the introduction of tactics.

What tactics?

The squad size increased forcing you to have more bugs in a smaller area making them more susceptible to AoE attacks.

Firefries still have a minimum squad Size of 5. And a D10 attack.
And Warriors did swarm anyway - it doesn't matter if the unit size is 5, 10 or 15. For Warriors nothing changed with the Evo ruleset. In fact you can spread them even better because in Evo any Bug can be it's own unit leader - you just by them together and then you could move them all seperately (although you neither want to move them all one by one nor spreading them over a large area. It's just inefficient).

If you are in cover and the victim of a CC charge you get to react before they attack. Potentially wiping them out and negating their attack. Next round you jump and run, rinse and repeat. You argument of a mass army works for both armies. Load up on LAMI if you really want too. Small squads = more reactions. Large squads = deadlier reactions.

I don't know what you wanna tell me here. Firefries do not attack in CC, they will burn those troopers out of their cover.
And once you did your one (and only!) reaction you can get charged by ten different enemy units you won't get any further reactions, so I don't see your point here.
Just use your Warriors to trigger the reactions then let your fries jump and kill. Or even better use the fries to trigger the reaction, then take your Warriors two actions and swarm them (this way you will not even get any reaction fire on your Warriors when attacking).
Works equally well with Ripplers (probably even better against LAMI).

 

[cOwgummi]

If you are in cover and the victim of a CC charge you get to react before they attack. Potentially wiping them out and negating their attack. Next round you jump and run, rinse and repeat. You argument of a mass army works for both armies. Load up on LAMI if you really want too. Small squads = more reactions. Large squads = deadlier reactions.

I don't know what you wanna tell me here. Firefries do not attack in CC, they will burn those troopers out of their cover.
And once you did your one (and only!) reaction you can get charged by ten different enemy units you won't get any further reactions, so I don't see your point here.
Just use your Warriors to trigger the reactions then let your fries jump and kill. Or even better use the fries to trigger the reaction, then take your Warriors two actions and swarm them (this way you will not even get any reaction fire on your Warriors when attacking).
Works equally well with Ripplers (probably even better against LAMI).

He's Right, you know that?!

Yeah sorry couldn't resist once more.
But I really think that havin only one Reaction makes Bugs too powerful against MI. Even moving every single Warrior by himself would actually be a good Idea...cause, who's gonna waste his whole Units Reaction against a single bug...But you'll never get to react to more than one of them...so you can kill a maximum of 1 Bug with your whole Unit Reaction, and then you are dead...congratulations...

Also yeah, lets find an easier alternative for the old Ammo Rules.

I like Flinching acutally, but I don't know how much it slows down Gameplay, the new Supression Rules aren't bad either...maybe combine them.

Get rid of shatterpoint, it's a stupid way to try and balance a game that isn't balanced. Stop that, give us back the whole Prioritylevel and Tactics from SST V1, that, besides the basic mechanics and reactions system, was one of the things which made the system stand out from the masses.

Also: Yay for old Arty Deviation.

Also Also: I support most of the Stuff Galatea said.

 

[Paladin]

I agree about having squd upgrades, thats quite a fun part of the game (Infact writting army lists/mechs/cars/etc is a big part of wargaming lol), and I could see it working on the cards, but those need sorting out majorly before anything is added to them... infact

=======> PUT TRAITS BACK INTO EVO!!!!!

Agreed.

Saying that its easier for new players doesnt work if the cards cramed ful of unreadable text. Even Heroclix uses a traits system, it just comes with a sheet of paper with the explinations listed, learn from yur compeitors, it'll clean up the cards no end...<========

I wasn't saying that confusion for newbies should be used to remove the ability. My point was that, if we are going to cards, make the cards as simple as possible by dividing them rather than trying to cram all the content into one card via vague shortened text and risk leaving out key wording that would avoid the arguments with rules lawyers. Hiromoons's version of the MI power suits with the Javelin upgrade on a separate card is a perfect example.

The Advanced rulebook should be advanced though. Theres no point reprinting the 4 page rules over 60 pages, sticking in the air phase and the old tunneling rules and calling it a day.

Agreed. i.e. The flatness of the "advanced" BF:Evo rules. They needed a bit more depth and more examples for noobs.

I like your veteran idea come to think of it. If Evo is to be the one reaction system (A squad reaction at that ugh....), a veterancy upgrade for more reactions makes sense.

Thanks

 

[Paladin]

Hence the introduction of tactics.

What tactics?

I'm not justifying that with an answer. It's to obvious. Both methods offer the use of tactics. My point is fewer resources, makes using them wisely more critical in a game, thus requirring greater strategy and tactical planning.

The squad size increased forcing you to have more bugs in a smaller area making them more susceptible to AoE attacks.

Firefries still have a minimum squad Size of 5. And a D10 attack.
And Warriors did swarm anyway - it doesn't matter if the unit size is 5, 10 or 15. For Warriors nothing changed with the Evo ruleset. In fact you can spread them even better because in Evo any Bug can be it's own unit leader - you just by them together and then you could move them all seperately (although you neither want to move them all one by one nor spreading them over a large area. It's just inefficient).

Units are still units. You can designate a new leader when the old one dies, not simply divide a squad into 10 units. If you can suddenly split individually you break the whole game and concepts of squad based reactions.

If you are in cover and the victim of a CC charge you get to react before they attack. Potentially wiping them out and negating their attack. Next round you jump and run, rinse and repeat. You argument of a mass army works for both armies. Load up on LAMI if you really want too. Small squads = more reactions. Large squads = deadlier reactions.

I don't know what you wanna tell me here. Firefries do not attack in CC, they will burn those troopers out of their cover.
And once you did your one (and only!) reaction you can get charged by ten different enemy units you won't get any further reactions, so I don't see your point here.
Just use your Warriors to trigger the reactions then let your fries jump and kill. Or even better use the fries to trigger the reaction, then take your Warriors two actions and swarm them (this way you will not even get any reaction fire on your Warriors when attacking).
Works equally well with Ripplers (probably even better against LAMI).

I didn't say use Firefries in CC. That would be rather foolish. What I said is that Cover with the Evo rules offers a strong resistence to close combat, particularly against the hordes of warrior bugs you first mentioned. MI units in cover get charged by warriors. Warriors move to point blank range, but the MI get their reaction first. They kill several or force several backwards and deny attacks without using a second action. You as the MI player however, still have to deside whether it is better to repel the warriors or target the Firefries in your example.

One possible limitation that could be considered by Mongoose to prevent the issue CC swarms would be to limit the charge action to only a single use per round, unless specific units allow for multiple charges via something like "Unstoppable". THat would be a fairly large change however and require some playtesting.

 

[Galatea]

so you can kill a maximum of 1 Bug with your whole Unit Reaction, and then you are dead...congratulations...

Nah, you still have firezones, allowing you to hit more than one unit. Although it leaves you with way to less firepower.

Units are still units. You can designate a new leader when the old one dies, not simply divide a squad into 10 units. If you can suddenly split individually you break the whole game and concepts of squad based reactions.

In Evo theoretically every Warrior Bug can create his own unit (being it's unit leader). But as I said, during the game I simply do not care if my unit is 5, 10 or 15 Warriors big. They will be on the same place as usual. It has absolutely no influence on in-game tactics. Warriors would group to 15 Model big Swarms anyway.

I didn't say use Firefries in CC. That would be rather foolish. What I said is that Cover with the Evo rules offers a strong resistence to close combat, particularly against the hordes of warrior bugs you first mentioned. MI units in cover get charged by warriors. Warriors move to point blank range, but the MI get their reaction first. They kill several or force several backwards and deny attacks without using a second action. You as the MI player however, still have to deside whether it is better to repel the warriors or target the Firefries in your example.

You get only one reaction. You prevent the bugs from charging you with their first action. If they still do have a second and can reach you with that you are screwed.
And if there are multiple units like Warrior in combination with firefries or Ripplers (or even Hoppers) your troops re REALLY screwed.

 

[cOwgummi]

so you can kill a maximum of 1 Bug with your whole Unit Reaction, and then you are dead...congratulations...

Nah, you still have firezones, allowing you to hit more than one unit. Although it leaves you with way to less firepower.

Lets do some Math, okay? Reaction Range is 10" a Warrior Bug moves 6" an Action. So it should be a piece of cake in most cases to get my warriors lined up on the exact edge of the enemys reaction zone.
Then I move 6" closer to the enemy, with a single bug, if he reacts only that bug will be in his 6" FZ. if he doesn't kill it it will charge and kill 2 troopers.
Then the next bug charges, maybe getting the first bug into the FZ, but noone else, and you have 2 troopers less... and so on and so on.
Gets even nastier with coordinate as you can strike from bigger distances/do this easier within a single round or even attack with the first warrior bug twice.

 

[Paladin]

What's the point of squads if they don't move as a squad? They may not have a "true" leader but they are still required to move/attack/trigger reactions together. In the Evo rules you cannot have more than one squad leader until the original dies. Units that move out of command lose their next two actions and are limited to reactions only.

"After two actions have been missed, you may nominate another model in
the unit to become unit leader, [b]so long as the original unit leader has been removed from the table.[/b]"

You can't designate more than one leader of a squad. i.e. no intentionally fanning out and breaking into individual squads.

 

[cOwgummi]

correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the arachnid swarm rules cancel the whole squad stuff out?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

No, a swarm can designate any model in the swarm as the squad leader at the start of any action - they need to remain in unit cohesion. the main advantage is that they'll never suffer the 2 action loss penalty for losing their squad leader, and as a minor advantage they can select the most advantageous model to keep them all in command range.

 

[cOwgummi]

Yeah but wasn't there something like being able to freely put Arachnid models together in swarms, not being limited by as which unit they were bought?

or is that the old way?

or did we get something fundamentally wrong here?

 

[Lorcan Nagle]

As I understand it you can have multiple squads/swarms operate together as a single action, but you can't split squads/swarms up. This is almost certainly the case of Evo, but i'd have to read up on original SST again to be 100% sure.

 

[Gauntlet-]

Oh man it would be so convenient if we could just ignore any semblance of squad structure for the Warrior Bugs... but it would be so horrible abusive...

maybe something very simple, like "any Warrior Bug that is over 3 inches away from any other Warrior Bug cannot perform an action."

This would allow you to move entire swarms at once and conveniently, or just small groups but they'd still require some bunching up. Still itd probablly be completely unbalanced with current mechanics.

Maybe I will test the idea out tommorrow night, see if there is any glaring huge problems right away. I mean theoretically you could have 5 warrior bugs stretched over 15 inches... so Obviously the main issue is fire zones, if I reduce that measure from 3 to 2, thats only 10 inches, and thats not so bad... if we expand split firing somehow that might work...

hmmm lol