What to do with the Avioki

[Silvereye]

I don't really have a problem with some league races being technologically superior to the EA, Narn or Centauri etc. Do you really think the Narn would have left the Brakiri in peace if they could easily annex them? They obviously needed some power to weild to say 'we are strong enough to resist you'.

There are likely many technologically advanced races out there, some won't expand beyond their home system or nearby systems because of their culture, or physiology, or relegion. But it doesn't mean they will be unable to build a strong warship to protect themselves.

 

[blackphoenix]

I'd like to see the majority of ships from B5wars brought into ACTA.

The Drazi and Brakiri have scouts, just not in ACTA currently.

 

[emperorpenguin]

I don't really have a problem with some league races being technologically superior to the EA, Narn or Centauri etc..

technologicaly superior no problem but I think it should be a signature League "trait" to not have the more individually powerful ships.

 

[Harmony]

There is nothing wrong with member worlds of TLoNAW having individually powerful vessels...in fact with limited resources, differing ideologies and a host of other alien reasons -- it is more logical for them to have them as them not having them.

Whilst the EAS has the dreaded Warlock DD(X) that'll cleanse the stars in its region of influence -- until it runs into a Yuan dreadnought and is sent to the locker; conversely the EAS has far more Warlock destroyers than the Yolu have Yuan dreadnoughts, so a single Warlock and a single Yuan will never meet (other than a chance encounter) in war to face off against each other.

It’s all about points, tactics and history; and historically, certain members of the league have vessels of equal and sometimes better combat effectiveness than the big four…they just don’t have the numbers.

(Just look at the Tashkat cruiser, she's one of the most advanced vessels flying, but the Brakiri just don't have them in the numbers that is required to threaten the Centauri or the EA.)

 

[emperorpenguin]

Yes you are right, but in a table top game how do you represent a smaller military?
Which is why I'd simply not allow the Drazi, Vree etc really big uberships

it's academic anyway since the Brivoki came along

 

[Goldritter]

(..)

It’s all about points, tactics and history; and historically, certain members of the league have vessels of equal and sometimes better combat effectiveness than the big four…they just don’t have the numbers.

(Just look at the Tashkat cruiser, she's one of the most advanced vessels flying, but the Brakiri just don't have them in the numbers that is required to threaten the Centauri or the EA.)

You can use these Ideas not in ACtA which is a "Fleet Combat" Game.
You need a game a step "above" Fleet Combat Games.

A Game where you can make political and economycal dessicians.
Where ships have not only a cost but a build time too.
Where you can make trade with other races and so on.

It would be a realy complex and looooooong game.

 

[blackphoenix]

Yes you are right, but in a table top game how do you represent a smaller military?
Which is why I'd simply not allow the Drazi, Vree etc really big uberships

it's academic anyway since the Brivoki came along

Limited Deployment on certain ships.
B5wars had it. There were 33% and 10% deployment types, those of the 33% couldn't add up to more than 33% of your points, and same with 10%.

Then there were the uncommon and rare ship hulls. One out of three could be uncommon and one of our nine could be rare.

So it gave some of the variants some real power, but you were very limited in how many you could deploy. The Kaliva for example was a rare ship if I recall correctly.

 

[emperorpenguin]

that represents less of a given hull, not the disparity in size between the EA fleet and the Pak'ma'ra say

 

[blackphoenix]

It helps the case with the more advanced league ships. Yes they are on equal power or better than some of the older races, but limited in numbers.

 

[Goldritter]

If you want to simulate this, you can change the rules for campaign so, that the RR cost for ships deptents not only what Level the Ship has, but from which race the ship is too.

For example EA Ships has a cost multiplicator of x1, the Centauri of x0.75, Minbari of x1 (good Worker Caste), Brakiri x1,75, Drazi x1, and so on.

But this is only an idea an the numbers aren´t correct.

 

[Harmony]

ACtA is a simulator, i.e., an even pointed battle will produce a historically unrealistic engagement (though tactically realistic for what the game system tries to emulate), a historically accurate engagement is better served with a custom designed campaign system (I'm unfamiliar with the one in ACtA); if the EA has a few thousand major combat vessels, allow each league race to have hundreds; when the league is combined they equal a major power, but no more....

It's like any other war-game (a Kirov-class rocket cruiser can pretty much kill anything one on one in Harpoon with a good chance of surviving the battle -- other than fighting another Kirov, too bad Russia only has like two of them; Bismarck was a fine, modern battleship that could go toe to toe with pretty much everything during the early stages of WW2 with a good chance of winning the engagement -- too bad Germany only had two).

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Bismarck was a fine, modern battleship that could go toe to toe with pretty much everything during the early stages of WW2 with a good chance of winning the engagement -- too bad Germany only had two).

Depends on whose side you were on, I guess...

Wulf

 

[Locutus9956]

Careful Wulf, remember the collosal flaming poor LBH got for a comment not dissimilar to that

 

[Wulf Corbett]

Careful Wulf, remember the collosal flaming poor LBH got for a comment not dissimilar to that

I am asbestos. Does my lungs in something rotten.

Wulf

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Harmony, who have you been playing that you can get away with an approach like that? There were always ways, always tricks of the trade, always options.
E-2C Hawkeye in distant support, one EA-6B orbiting just above the radar horizon and out of Fort-5V500 range, another starting shut down and coming in below the radar with a squadron of attack Hornets, worked pretty well for me. Actually, Sea Dart worked on one occasion.
That or if you were totally desperate, Mk 45 ASTOR :lol:
The point? Accountancy is dull. Tactics are fun. Games, however realistic they're supposed to be, that don't allow for good or at least twisted ideas to have effect, that don't permit some of the flukes and freak occurrences real combat is full of, are at best a quartermaster's view of war. I like the PL system because it isn't accounting based.
As far as Nazi battleships went, Tovey, Pound, Somerville, Cunningham, Horton et al would have been quite happy too, probably, if there had been more Bismarck class- especially if it meant there were fewer of the Grey Wolves to go round. Behemoths aren't always the way to go, and small ships multiply far faster in wartime than big ones. The League might actually be able to win a war of attrition.

 

[Arcadia]

And don’t forget that the Bismarck was cripple by a torpedo bomber biplane (WW1 relic, can't be more low-tec.) that was fly so slow that the Bismarck radar controlled Anti-Aircraft (The best hi-tec of the time WW2)couldn’t lock on it. Direct hit to the rudder and was left moving in big circles.

Precedent: fighters do get the lucky critical hit!!!

 

[Sulfurdown]

I did just a quick numbers check (bad habit of mine) and if you're comparing a head on between the Primus and the Avioki with both as SFoS rules and at point blank range (<1"), the Primus would take the Avioki down in roughly 6 turns from damage output. The Avioki, on the other hand would take 9 turns to take down the Primus. This is assuming the Primus came to the battle without fighters and with it's interceptors turned off and they both just All Stop (so no concentrating fire).

In case anyone was wondering.

 

[Slightly Norse John]

Ah, welcome to the bad habit of using the nastiest thing you can get your hands on as OPFOR. Cascor, Yolu, Kor-Lyan, Hyach, all suggested on the boards (I get my D's and E's mixed up sometimes, but I have the numbers), I had a go at them- and tested them to destruction with my usual Jashakar-Omelos-Targrath combo. If anything survived to the fourth round, that's how I knew it was so bent as to be wildly unusable.
How we got on to the subject I don't know, but- RN capital ship losses in WW2;
one battlecruiser to heavy ship gunfire (Hood), one battlecruiser, one battleship to aerial torpedo attack (Repulse, Prince of Wales), two battleships to submarine torpedo (Royal Oak, Barham);
one carrier to capital ship fire (Glorious), two carriers to aerial bombing (Ark Royal, Hermes), two carriers to submarine torpedoes (Eagle, Courageous); ship to ship gun duels were the exception, it's not really a model ACtA ought to be taking much from.
Operationally speaking the tourney Avioki actually makes more sense, when you think about what it's for. I throw the fluff away and look at the numbers, and imagine they were meant to be there. The standard Avioki is actually very hard to kill. No interceptors; proprietary tech of one Brakiri corporation rather than another, maybe, but they're unnecessary if you expect to be hit by heavy beam weapons. It's a rhinoceros rather than a tiger, though; it's slow loading, non- penetrating beam is not going to land very hard on anything. Avoid being killed, yes, but it's not very good at killing.
The tourney version, with extra range and AP on the main and no flank weapons, is much more obviously built for a specific role as a spearhead unit, intended to give them a measure of equality against major powers' heavy warships. It can't manage that and protect it's own flanks and rear as well, so it needs an escort group.

 

[Harmony]

You can draw comparisons from past human conflicts not for the tactical depth and detail, but for the underlying strategic makeup that was brought up in this thread; powers with relatively little industry fielded units that were just as effective (and sometimes more so) than the industrial giants – an Avioki needn’t be markedly inferior to a Hyperion, a G’Quan or a Primus for example (they’ll have different traits obviously that pertains to their use).

On Harpoon…I was thinking a lone surface combatant versus a lone surface combatant; and you’re right, a fleet carrier will win a duel with most everything; though its air wing better be on the ball to intercept those twenty Shipwreck missiles. Nothing can stop an ADCAP by the way….

 

[Nightmares about Minbari]

The only trouble with detailed strategic games that cover production realistically is that they take a long time to play.

Currently playing Federation and Empire, which covers this angle very well, and each players turn is taking about a 12 hour day, so a whole weekend to get a complete turn.

A simple solution might be to rate each ship with a fleet density or frequency rating. Expressed as the maximum number of that hull type that will be found in a standard fleet. So the rare ships that are never deployed together might be density 1, uncommon ships that are scarce, but used in squadrons when they are used might be density 3, while the standard line warships might be density 6, 9 or even 12, depending on how many different hull types the fleet has available.

For example the Brakiri:
Tashkat - initially density 1, rising to 3 after a few years
Avioki - density 6 or 9, its the core of their fleet
Kaliva - density 2 or 3, specialist ship, possibly rising to 6 as it supercedes the Avioki
Brokados - density 3 or 4, intended as a rival to the Omega, so would be used in squadrons
Halik - density 9 or 12
Haltona - density 4 or 6, specialist variant
Ikorta - density 3 or 6, it's a troop ship after all

Hopefully this gives some idea of what I'm driving at