What is STR?

[Cowboy]

The SIZ and STR attributes are something that's always bothered me about RQ/BRP because it's not clear to me just what STR represents.

Is STR strength relative to SIZ? If so, it doesn't make much sense that large creatures generally have very high STR scores and small creatures generally have low STR scores - physics dictate that it should be the other way around.

On the other hand, if STR is absolute strength, it's hard to see why SIZ affects your damage bonus.

Has anyone experimented with simply doing away with the SIZ attribute?

 

[Utgardloki]

I think in Runequest, STR has to be regarded as absolute. If you want more fidelity to real-life physics, STR should track approximately 2/3 of SIZ, so for every 30 point increase of average SIZ, the creature should have a 20 point increase of STR.

I don't think anybody designs creatures that way, but there is no reason why they couldn't design creatures so average STR is (average SIZ - 10) * 2/3 + 10. [approximately.]

I like the SIZ stat. I was looking for a system a little it more granular than the D&D system, where big guys and little guys have different advantages and penalties.

If you are interested in RPG history, the Villians and Vigilantes system was one where STR was related to size in that a STR 10 giant would be proportionately as strong as an STR human.

Rather than get rid of the STR attribute, I plan to use it even more. For example, hit location can be partially determined by SIZ, by having the attacker roll an additional time for every 20 point SIZ difference, picking the closer hit location. This way, giants will usually be hit on the leg unless they are fighting other similarly large creatures.

Another idea that's been discussed on this thread was allowing fractional SIZ scores. That way, if a character is shrunk to small size, everything can just be multiplied by 10 (or 100 for extreme circumstances) to determine what happens). Cats become like lions, and unshrunken companions become like giants. I have not completed the maths yet, but if it is done right, this could be very smooth.

A controversial idea of mine was to give male and female human PCs different adjustments to SIZ, thereby reflecting the human dimorphism. I remember playing a female monk in D&D who maxed out her grappling, but the D&D rules did not distinguish between a 110 pound and a 220 pound wrestler.

I like the SIZ attribute. If the physics bothers you, just cut down the STR scores of giant creatures.

 

[simonh]

On the other hand, if STR is absolute strength, it's hard to see why SIZ affects your damage bonus.

STR is absolute.

No system is ideal. I've seen systems proposed which have different stats for height and weight rather than just one SIZ stat, and different types of STR for lifting, pushing, etc. However RPGs aren't physics simulations, so you have to accept some compromise somewhere.

Personally I'd never design an RPG from scratch with a SIZ stat, even though I've run many games using BRP derived systems, including home-grown derivatives retaining all the core systems including SIZ. For what it is, it works fine.

They way I think about it is that SIZ is also a proxy for height, and taller characters are going to get an advantage in the damage bonus stakes due to the extra fore they can get from high blows. They also get the advantage of extra momentum. I know that this obviously crosses over into STR territory, but STR is also used for pure muscular exertion where momentum is irrelevant, such as weight lifting or arm wrestling.

In some cases you want to use bare STR because size is irrelevant. In others you want to just use SIZ, such as how hard it is to lift a sleeping character, or how much they weigh down a small boat. In others again you want to factor in both, such as damage bonuses. In one scenario I read the characters have to roll a large rock up a hill, and they use their SIZ + STR totals for the roll. That makes sense.

I understand you're reservations, as I say I'd probably not bother with a separate stat if designing the game from scratch as it seems like too much detail for me, but IMHO it does work and has historically been handled pretty consistently.

 

[Cowboy]

I'm wondering of perhaps, I could import Swordbearer's way of handling it and, instead of rolling 3D6 for STR, roll 1D6-3+SIZ and then use STRx2 to determine damage bonus instead of STR+SIZ.

This would change the range for STR to 6 to 21 but I can live with that.

I'd also have to change it for nonhumans, of course. But that would just mean adjusting STR upor down by the average difference between STR and SIZ.

It would have the advantage of not producing any STR 18, SIZ 8 or STR 3, SIZ 18 characters.

 

[RosenMcStern]

It would have the advantage of not producing any STR 18, SIZ 8 or STR 3, SIZ 18 characters.

But then you have to introduce some special advantage/disadvantage (as in GURPS) for really fat (SIZ 18 STR 6-) or super-muscular (SIZ 8 STR 13+) characters, such as dwarfs. SIZ can be regarded as a subcategory of STR, no doubt, but it still works fine as it is. In previous releases of RQ, you could not train your STR upwards if your SIZ or CON was too low, which is limiting in game terms, but undoubtedly realistic.

 

[weasel_fierce]

I dont find a real issue with the rules as presented. A guy with high strength and low size is just a tough, wiry guy who knows exactly how to apply his tenacious force.

Any rpg will have odd results. Its no worse than a D&D character with INT 3 and WIS 18, or a Vampire character with Charisma 5, Manipulation 1.

 

[burdock]

you have doubts about yo str?


dude this is the lowest of the low.



I know the answer and it has the initials: R. G.

 

[Cowboy]

It would have the advantage of not producing any STR 18, SIZ 8 or STR 3, SIZ 18 characters.

But then you have to introduce some special advantage/disadvantage (as in GURPS) for really fat (SIZ 18 STR 6-) or super-muscular (SIZ 8 STR 13+) characters, such as dwarfs. SIZ can be regarded as a subcategory of STR, no doubt, but it still works fine as it is. In previous releases of RQ, you could not train your STR upwards if your SIZ or CON was too low, which is limiting in game terms, but undoubtedly realistic.

Actually, I wouldn't. The obese feller would have SIZ 18, STR 16 (needed to haul all that excess weight around) and really poor CON.

The SIZ 8 character wouldn't be able to roll a STR above 11 which would be the whole point.

And for nonhumans with significant difference between average STR and SIZ, I'd simply add or subtract the difference, so a dwarf, for example, would have STR = 1D6+2+SIZ.

This way, maximum STR would be different for a petite SIZ 8 character anf a huge SIZ 18 character.

 

[Adhi]

I've used the following formula to get STR; ((3d6 + (SIZ * 2)) / 3) - 2 rounded up. It gets you a STR which correlates with size, but still varies a bit. For example if a normal sized human (SIZ:13) rolls a 10 he gets a 10 for STR ((36 / 3) - 2). If he rolls an 18 he gets 13 for strenght ((44 / 3) - 2). Someone with SIZ:18, who rolls a 10, gets STR:14. If he had rolled 18 his STR would have been 16.

 

[Quire]

I've used the following formula to get STR; ((3d6 + (SIZ * 2)) / 3) - 2 rounded up. It gets you a STR which correlates with size, but still varies a bit. For example if a normal sized human (SIZ:13) rolls a 10 he gets a 10 for STR ((36 / 3) - 2). If he rolls an 18 he gets 13 for strenght ((44 / 3) - 2). Someone with SIZ:18, who rolls a 10, gets STR:14. If he had rolled 18 his STR would have been 16.

I can see why you'd link STR to SIZ...but why the minus 2? An 18 SIZ human can only have a max 16 STR? Why?

- Q

 

[Adhi]

I've used the following formula to get STR; ((3d6 + (SIZ * 2)) / 3) - 2 rounded up. It gets you a STR which correlates with size, but still varies a bit. For example if a normal sized human (SIZ:13) rolls a 10 he gets a 10 for STR ((36 / 3) - 2). If he rolls an 18 he gets 13 for strenght ((44 / 3) - 2). Someone with SIZ:18, who rolls a 10, gets STR:14. If he had rolled 18 his STR would have been 16.

I can see why you'd link STR to SIZ...but why the minus 2? An 18 SIZ human can only have a max 16 STR? Why?

- Q

The mr. Average has STR:10.5, SIZ:13 and the ratio of STR to SIZ about 0.8. So if mr. SIZ:18 mas muscle mass per total mass in the same ratio, his STR would be about 14. The minus two is there only for keeping the ratio the same.

Max STR training limit in 3rd edition was either the original CON or SIZ. And you get more muscle mass (meaning STR) by lifting weights. IRL there's really no need for overpaid trainers after the start. Though you cannot train 50h per week (At least I couldn't. 10h was about the my max. And even then the pace was quite killing).