Interestingly this is the exact opposite of most of the complaints about Armageddon - Mongoose isn't a huge company and playtesting takes time to get right. Most people seem to think that P&P gets most things fairly right and is better than Armageddon. Was it worth the wait? Well that's for you to decide although I think the fact that as you say the miniatures were stopping really didn't help it at all (there were about ten new ships ready for release that weren't variants).Joe_Dracos said:
What is going to happen
- Thread starter bblaney001
- Start date
sidewinder
Mongoose
Joe_Dracos said:
I'm sorry but if your group lost people because of a delay in a book and then the book isnt want they wanted then they werent really that into the game anyway. This game is perfectly playable without P&P. (well maybe not the Gaim... but anyways.)
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
Its not so much the delay itself as the promises that were broken (1 year delay is a big delay) by the company (the reason for this is inconsiquential, if you set a goal, you deliver on that goal). The ships that weren't variants could still have been published along with the new fleets. After all, there are fleets out their that don't have counters, why can't you have ships with counters but no models? Wouldn't have lost those people if the dissappointment of the release date being almost perpetually pushed back if a more realistic release date was set.
I really wouldn't know anything about the so called "problems" of the Armageddon suppliment. I personally did not have any problems with the book itself. I even prefered the Warlock at Armageddon (it worked better there IMO). The idea that any fleet should be denied a ship in any PL is ludicrous. Less time should be spent codelling the fans (not no time, but much less) and more time working on new material. The game will have flaws, if gaming companies put out perfect games then they would go out of business (cause there would be no need to publish new editions). If there is a clarification needed (E-Mines come to mind) then that sort of thing should go into an FAQ or siqns and portents, not a supplement like Powers and Principalities.
I'm not saying that I didn't like P&P, just that I was disappointed in it. It wasn't all it could be.
I really wouldn't know anything about the so called "problems" of the Armageddon suppliment. I personally did not have any problems with the book itself. I even prefered the Warlock at Armageddon (it worked better there IMO). The idea that any fleet should be denied a ship in any PL is ludicrous. Less time should be spent codelling the fans (not no time, but much less) and more time working on new material. The game will have flaws, if gaming companies put out perfect games then they would go out of business (cause there would be no need to publish new editions). If there is a clarification needed (E-Mines come to mind) then that sort of thing should go into an FAQ or siqns and portents, not a supplement like Powers and Principalities.
I'm not saying that I didn't like P&P, just that I was disappointed in it. It wasn't all it could be.
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
That doesn't appear to be what I said at all....
Mind you infering on the internet can be difficult. What I was trying to say was that more achievable goals should have been set. For instance, when the rules are written and a preview is leaked, there should be a reasonable amount of time between the initial announcement and the release date.
You can't say its going to come out at a certain date and then allow multiple delays which culminate in a long series of broken promises. If something in the book needs more playtesting then the alotted time allowed then it should be set aside for a future suppliment so you can meet the deadline. I would have been willing to wait for an extra year for the space station rules (which we have yet to use) and get a smaller suppliment that year. Their are ways to make your deadlines without just pumping out a bunch of untested rules.
Sometimes less is more, and I think B5 is an example of a cautionary tale in this instance. This just means that Matt and his team will be better prepared for the future.
Mind you infering on the internet can be difficult. What I was trying to say was that more achievable goals should have been set. For instance, when the rules are written and a preview is leaked, there should be a reasonable amount of time between the initial announcement and the release date.
You can't say its going to come out at a certain date and then allow multiple delays which culminate in a long series of broken promises. If something in the book needs more playtesting then the alotted time allowed then it should be set aside for a future suppliment so you can meet the deadline. I would have been willing to wait for an extra year for the space station rules (which we have yet to use) and get a smaller suppliment that year. Their are ways to make your deadlines without just pumping out a bunch of untested rules.
Sometimes less is more, and I think B5 is an example of a cautionary tale in this instance. This just means that Matt and his team will be better prepared for the future.
Joe_Dracos said:
Albeit that would be nice but flipside of that would be announcement in style of GW, ie when product is practically on doorstep. Myself I can live with occasional delay if I find out about interesting products sooner rather than later.
Sure I might see few delays in seeing more supplements about cities in Conan RPG for example but atleast I know they are coming.
And you think people would have been happy if they had released rest now and spacestations later? Nope. They would have accused Mongoose of being greedy by demanding money for space stations separatly. Not to mention there WOULDN'T likely BE second book for space stations due to license ending so we would have been left in situation where Mongoose is accused of just being greedy bunch forcing players to buy tons of books and leave us without space station rules in the end for added fun.
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
*sigh*
Your right, you can't please everybody... but you can please the vast majority (and you should settle for that). GW's stile of anouncing releases tends to please more people then it displeases... after all, the company has thrived on that fassion of anouncing new releases.... as have many others. While announcing that you are developing a particular item can help business, giving a release date (even an approximated one) and missing it (lets say by a year) can cause problems with your customer base. Short delays (like a month or so) will be tollerated by the customer.
How ever, you example has its flaws. We would have had P&P last year and a new suppliment now with space stations.
As for people calling a company greedy.... well thats just plain nieve (spelling bad). The company is out there to make money, so the idea of leaving space stations for a future suppliment is actually good business, because it provides the customer with anticipation.
With people that you can't please.... you just ignore them, because they are a waste of your time... concentrate on who you can please (which from all of the complaining I've read on the forums, is almost every B5 fan). I like B5... I wish it was staying, but its not.
Your right, you can't please everybody... but you can please the vast majority (and you should settle for that). GW's stile of anouncing releases tends to please more people then it displeases... after all, the company has thrived on that fassion of anouncing new releases.... as have many others. While announcing that you are developing a particular item can help business, giving a release date (even an approximated one) and missing it (lets say by a year) can cause problems with your customer base. Short delays (like a month or so) will be tollerated by the customer.
How ever, you example has its flaws. We would have had P&P last year and a new suppliment now with space stations.
As for people calling a company greedy.... well thats just plain nieve (spelling bad). The company is out there to make money, so the idea of leaving space stations for a future suppliment is actually good business, because it provides the customer with anticipation.
With people that you can't please.... you just ignore them, because they are a waste of your time... concentrate on who you can please (which from all of the complaining I've read on the forums, is almost every B5 fan). I like B5... I wish it was staying, but its not.
Joe_Dracos said:
You would think people would be satisfied when they would end up lied about contents of the book when space stations would be left out? Especially when they would need to shell out another 25$+ for the station rules? Especially when those rules would never have been even published due to license running out...Yeah that's going to please people when they first are told that they have to shell out more cash for rules they were told to come with P&P and then find out they wouldn't get the rules in the end anyway.
Note that announcing 2-3 months before release so that it definetly meets the deadline isn't possible here because players were allowed to PLAYTEST the rules. This requires leaking information lot earlier than 2-3 months so delays are to be expected.
GW thrives because they have such a strong brand built on '90's that their products sell themselves. Not due to their quality which is inferior to many others.
Not likely. They wouldn't likely have bothered to start all new supplement with license running out. We got P&P because it was already being worked on and not requiring that much more resources invested anymore. Developing supplements cost MONEY. Why would Mongoose have bothered to start developing new one when lisence runs out soon and it would have minimal shelf time? I doubt they are interested in producing loss instead of profit. P&P was simply because it was more profitable to finish it than to scrap it.
a) not really because people are going to be pissed off when rules they were told they would get in P&P would be pushed to another 25$+ supplement.
b) that supplement would never have seen light of day anyway thanks to license running out. Wouldn't make financially sense to produce supplement when it couldn't be on sale long enough to cover the cost.
P&P earlier wouldn't have saved B5(or do you seriously think P&P released on time would have attracted tons of new players? Wishful thinking that) so better for Mongoose to fit all they have left there since that was last we would get.
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
tneva82 said:
Seems to me you might be expecting a bit much from companies... btu your the customer and that is your luxury.
tneva82 said:
well... if you are unwise enough to announce a release date that close before developing the book, then yeah... its not coming out. Most companies won't even leak the information about an upcoming release, never mind the content, until they are ready for printing. Also the longer you develop the books the less money you can make on it. Removing problem sections will give you a good book now, which is far better then an amazing one later. Quite frankly, this isn't a cash cow industry, so a smaller supplement last year would have been far better then the one we got now.
tneva82 said:
yeah... thats not why they are still around. If they are only moving on momentum that they built up in the 90's then they are about to go out of business. They are always changing the rules of the game and producing new codex's and models. If they are still making money after 26 years then your argument is obviously faulty... perhaps AoG might be a better example of failed business plans.
tneva82 said:
Well, with that logic, P&P should have been abandoned last year when they announced the end of the line. Your argument is self defeating. I don't think that you understand how businesses make money... it actually does cost money. By your arguement, P&P is costing them money because it was released a month or so before they would have to stop printing it.... I'm kinda confused by that statement. A supplement produced near the end of the licence will still make them money (after all they are still going to be allowed to sell their stock).
tneva82 said:
and yet people do. Gaming companys relly on that business plan to survive.
tneva82 said:
So what about Powers and Principalities? It saw the light of day (so to speak)
tneva82 said:
Well, without a time machine niether of us can say yay or nay. However, losing their current customers is what killed the line (if you can't keep your current customers then you probably won't attract new ones) and I am again refering to the B5:ACTA line only. Participation on this forum should be evidence enough... it has declined over the two years. A smaller P&P may have been a much more ecomical dicision in the end, but for proof.
I think that perhaps the discussion is getting a little heated.... shall we continue this tomorrow so cooler heads might prevail?
Joe_Dracos said:
Huh? I'm not the one who's pissed off because of delays. I can wait tad longer to get quality rules. Atleast I won't have to suffer stunts like GW does invalidating HUNDREDS of euro's just like that on a whim(well actually not on a whim. Deliberate attempt to force me to buy new models actually. Too bad for them I won't buy them. There are more customer friendly companies out there). Gee thanks a lot GW. Due to your "#%#"¤!"¤½!%! decisions I have now several USELESS armies which can't even legally be used if game is supported(FB). Nevermind armies which just plain sucks now(40k) or are for games GW doesn't bother to support anymore(epic, bfg, necromunda, inquisitor).
Delays are nothing compared to "piss the customers" stunts GW do. They arbitatly alter game rules to maximise amount people have to buy models. Had Mongoose went their way it would have begin with raid ships being uber broken, then war ships uber broken, next patrol ships uber broken so that old people have to horde new models all the time and new players who might get current fleet for cheap have to buy new ships by bucketloads in next edition. Oh and ACTA V2 would have seen quite a few ships you wouldn't be able to use anymore to boot.
tneva82 said:
But in return you get more happy customers which in turn means more money for company. Might it be that Mongoose actually cares about satisfying customers instead of being like GW which makes decisions based solely on how to maximise sales of models and to hell with quality rules. Rules are there just to force people to buy new models. "Oh everybody have tons of tyranid small critters but little big monsters? Okay turn the little critters to crap and boost the big monsters so everybody will get 7-8 of them minimum."
I know I prefer Mongoose style.
Or not. We wouldn't have received space stations ever then.
Yup. Ones which are made just to force people buy new models. But then again thanks to their brand they don't have to make quality rules because the product sells itself. Since miniature wargame=Warhammer synonym exists they don't have to bother with quality rules. Warhammer is the one new miniature gamers are most likely going to be aware due to the brand and high visibility and that's their target. They don't care about old customers. They generate only tiny portion of income compared to new players. So rather than producing high quality rules they concentrate on marketing to attract new players.
Different strategies. They can afford high visibility PR so they can attract new players who haven't even heard of miniature games before. Mongoose, Rackham, Privateer Press etc can't so they have to concentrate on making high quality rules to compensate. Thing just is that's not way you can gain higher playing group. Old players aren't likely going to be dumbing armies they have paid thousands of dollars and new players aren't likely going to even HEAR of those companies or their products before starting the hobby.
Oh and the fact they gained big popularity in '90s is pretty much killer for newer companies. Why? Because everybody and their uncle plays it among miniature gamers. I have heard all too often "I would be interested in playing the X but no-one around me plays it.". So they don't start it. And because they didn't start it no-one else starts either because nobody plays it around there.
With GW games you don't have to worry about that. If place you live in isn't TOTALLY dead in miniature games(like place I live in) you can bet your house you'll find GW players. With non-GW games regardless of how good rules are or how cheap models are or how company behind it does everything perfect you are fighting uphill struggle to convince people to throw in hundreds of $$$'s to start new game. And that game might live and die in that place on actions of one individual. If he moves elsewhere that game could all too easily die in that place...
So people pay overpriced prices(25£ for ten PLASTIC infantry? Dear god...) for rules that are inferior because it's simply more convinient. GW did it right back in '90s and had no serious contenders with similar capacities and gained huge marketshare making miniature wargames mean warhammer for huge amount of people. Now they are reaping benefits of that. Since other games struggle to get people playing their games regardless of positives they have over GW games GW can release subpar rules to milk more money and increase price of models at will beyond all sensibility(I mean plastic models shouldn't cost more than 0.9£ per model top and even that is pricey for plastic models. Definitely NOT 2.5£ per model ever. For cavalry that's bearable but for infantry? No way 2.5£ can be considered anywhere near fair price for plastic infantry model).
Warmachine for example is only now after YEARS of work starting to gain any sort of popularity in Finland and even that is more of concerned on few cities and outside that good luck finding opponents. Not because company behind it sucks. Not because it's rules stink. Not because models are overpriced. Not because models look bad. But because getting people to play it is bloody hard due to lack of players. AT-43, Hell dorado, historical games, ACTA, SST...You name it, they all have suffered or are suffering the same issue.
Except then they would have wasted resources already spent. Since majority of resources to be paid is already paid for it's more profitable to finish it and release it.
So: If they had scrapped P&P they would have paid of 75% resources and got 0 income. If they finish it they pay 100% resources and get atleast some amount. Amount that is bigger than the 25%. New supplement would have to pay 100% of it's production cost while generating less than the 100%.
They got more money than they had to invest to finish the P&P. If they figured they would make less money than resources needed to finish it they would have scrapped the P&P regardless of how close to finish it is.
They estimated it provides more profit than they had to pay to finish it up. Regardless of whether it gives profit compared to full production cost is irrelevant since it was largely developed before scrapping the line. They might not be able to profit from that part but they could get atleast some of it back by paying the relatively small amount left to be paid and getting it published.
But new one would have to be made from scratch costing quite a bit. Just because P&P might make more money than it cost to finish it doesn't mean new supplement which would have cost lot more than finishing P&P with space station rules costed would have made profit.
]So what about Powers and Principalities? It saw the light of day (so to speak)[/quote said:
Joe_Dracos
Mongoose
tneva82 said:
you seem to have taken this out of context.
tneva82 said:
Well, its only invalidated if you and your select group of friends decide that they are ivalidated. They're not being unfriendly to you, they are trying to survive as a business. They need to sell models, and if you alread own all the models you need then they will go out of business. When I was still playing 40k I used a heavily modeled 3rd edition hive tyrant because I didn't like the way the new one looked. Most GW coordinators are also rather reasonable when you approach them and tell them you just like your models better then the new ones. Most will be alright with you using them (most). Those games they don't support anymore weren't profitable. It is unreasonable for you to expect any company to continue to produce an unsuccessful product.
tneva82 said:
Only if your logic is used. I personally would let people use whatever model they wanted, as long as they followed the rules that have been legalized. And quite frankly a very similar event did occur with V2. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't they remove ships from the fleet lists cause they weren't being used?
tneva82 said:
Thats an odd example.... I'm not sure what your attempting to say. The last codex nids got made small creatures and medium creatures way better. My warrior/gaunt army was undefeated (I wouldn't take them to tournies because that would be poor sportsmanship on my part). I bought the models I liked and didn't give the others a second look (new chaplains are a good example).
Also their is also the fiasco of the battletech "unseen" mechs. Though that was more or less forceful removal via lawsuit, but I think the example is in the ballpark.
tneva82 said:
Oh well. I never use them anyway.
tneva82 said:
Your really stuck on this GW thing.... *sigh*
Okay, I'll feed your GW hate some more (though cautiously).
They actually are a high visibility company... but thats because they are successful. However, companies can not just pander to new players. In fact, with GW its the older players who have the large amounts of money to throw at new armies. They just failed to keep your business and it sounds as if your a touch sour.
tneva82 said:
Well, Mongoose is actually primarily an RPG, but then again, one suppliment a year is a reasonable thing to promise. They just bit off more then they could chew with P&P (three new fleets plus new ships and variants). Confrontation and Warmachine... well I just find them bland. The fantasy genre is just been beaten to death lately. Then again thats just my preference. From what I've seen, new minigamers go for 40k because it is one of the few sci-fi miniature games out their simulating ground combat. It also allows you to personalize your army to a fantastic degree. Its uniqueness means that it has cornered a market and when your done, the army is truely yours. Thats why new players go to GW, not simply because of their visibility (though it does help).
tneva82 said:
It happens, and it is unfortunate. I also didn't know you had insider knowledge, if it was that complete, why did it take another year? Playtesting is a vast and expansive part of the cost after all.
tneva82 said:
okay, lets see... in one year you get 75% of what you need done.... your looking at 1 more year for 25%..... sounds like it needs to be cut back. One year is far to much time for that little portion, its more likely that 25% of the work was done and the vast majority of the work needed to be done. Thats just my perception though.
tneva82 said:
If they got any substantial amount from taking the extra time then the licence would be extended. The line is a failure (it stings just to type it but its true). Time to move to a new version of ACTA.
tneva82 said:
Might have been better to move a new project forward at that cost. Sometimes swallowing a loss is neccessary for a successful business. FASA and the unseen mechs can also be fit snuggly into this example.
tneva82 said:
Actually, a second smaller suppliment would have made more money. I still would have bought it so I could have it when the licence expires. I have a feeling that that many others would have bought it too. Not to mention that P&P would have had more time to sell and more copies could be brought into circulation.
tneva82 said:
Then what was the delay for? Writing and formating takes remarkably little time (a couple of weeks for the writting and a couple of weeks for the formating(and I have training in this)). Playtesting did happen before hand.
tneva82 said:
Okay.... so why take the year to finish the entirety of the book. Scrap the sections that aren't working and publish the rest on time. No more time and money wasted on the project. You can then focus on maximizing your sales and actually making money (which is what a business needs to do, after all Matt needs to eat and pay his bills). You'd still have a quality product... just smaller then you planned.
tneva82 said:
Cause it took a whole extra year, we're not talking a month or two, a year. That is a tremendous cost overrun for any company. An on schedual release might have been able to keep the old players and show that the company is dedicated to its fans (which unfortunately is what killed the line). While Mongoose is dedicated to its fans in reality, unreasonable delays (and reasonable is up to the customer) portray the opposite.
Okay, I don't mean any offense, but you seem to be getting a touch spun. Please take a break after reading this, have something to eat or drink, take a nap or whatever relaxes you. Also it might be best to stay away from any more GW examples. You've been starting to get a bit off topic and it reads like a rant.
Joe_Dracos said:
Oh SURE I can play old edition...Except wait a second. No-one around me PLAYS old editions! Should I play solo?
You can sell models without deliberatly pissing off their existing customers. But GW doesn't care ratass about their existing customers. Only about new ones.
Lol. Doesn't matter when the unit type doesn't exist anymore or is so crap using them is just shooting yourself to foot. No-one forces here to use only newest models(no official GW tournaments here) but doesn't matter when rules either don't have unit type or they are now so lousy option only braindead idiot takes them unless he enjoys getting crushed all the time.
Bullshit. If they put expected sales to non-profitable they wouldn't even try it. So if they release it they expect to make atleast SOME profit. When sales exceed expectations by 400% you seriously think it wasn't making profit?
No company creates game if even expected sales don't provide profit. If sales exceed expectations by 400% then it's flat out stupid to claim they didn't make profit.
Since when is exceeding sale expectation by 400% unsuccesfull? And if they put expectations so low 400% exceeding is unsuccesful why would they even invest in making it in a first place?
But that's what GW does. Invalidate units(oh you paid several hundred dollars for your army? Too bad. Army isn't legal anymore in new edition. tough luck) and make them suck so bad only braindead idiots use them anymore.
So how are you supposed to use models and armies that don't have legal rules anymore thanks to GW's new braindead idea? Tell me that. I'm curious.
I'm saying they switch current most broken army(and unit within army) to force people to buy new models. I have given up following what's latest news on 40k but that's what they do. That's how I have had large part of my armies pretty much killed. Units that were playable(not broken but atleast you didn't kill your chances of winning) suddenly becoming so crap it's not worth the effort.
For example I had built and painted very characterful, very fun to play Imperial Guard army. Groovy. Very different to the usual gunline sit back and shoot and don't move an i Others enjoyed playing against Imperial guard army that did something different. It was still far from winner(infact it was underpowered to begin with but atleast it was possible to win with it) but it was fun. I had spent lots of efforts in making paintjob to be good one.
Then came 4th edition and made any attempt to play that army suicide. It simply couldn't hope to win period. I could either scrap the army or spend about 250e more to get neccessary reinforcements to turn the army into something that might actually work. And I would be left with 70% of my models in useless garbage.
New IG codex meanwhile wouldn't support the army at all. Period. Not legal to use it. I would have to scrap it and redesign it from get-go losing the heart and soul of the army.
So I was left with IG army that is useless. There's no point playing when end result is forseen conclusion. And with the model collection I had there was no chance of getting useful force.
And IG is just one example out of many. I could name world eaters I had. So I combined them with space marines and got big undivided chaos army. Which is now trash. Oh and daemons&beastmen in FB(which I had plenty but now neither is legal without investing in about 400e+ to get both armies in legal state. Gee GW thanks a lot. I can't now play them legally without house rules and good luck getting those approved widely). High elves have taken hits. Dwarves likewise. Bretonnia is suffering.
They are succesful because they did it good in '90's and now can just feed on the success.
And their strategy IS to cater new players and not care about old ones. You can find out that from any number of ex-GW sale people who have told how things work inside that company.
Older people who aren't new customers already have their armies. They might have money but they have their armies and therefore aren't main target. Main targets are young kids who are provided cash by their parents/summer jobs. THAT'S where money comes from. THAT is what they aim for.
But when you can cut your losses by noticable amount by finishing it why not do it? You lose more money by NOT finishing it.
I didn't see any offers to pay the playtesters here ;-)
Who says playtesting is most expensive part? It isn't. Especially when you have whole bunch of free folks doing it.
Except license costs. It isn't worth it for one space station supplement.
Not really. You have to design it from scratch pretty much doubling development costs but not profit.
And then we would have been left without space stations. And people would be pissed off because they would have been lied to. Maybe they want quality product out even if it takes bit extra time instead of chucking out the same garbage GW chucks out bit earlier. Just because GW concentrates on selling garbage doesn't mean other companies isn't interested in producing quality products.
Getting P&P when first indicated wouldn't have saved the line. It has been dying years before P&P. That's side effect of being licensed to TV show. No new material, no new interest. Those games are just feeding on old fans but there isn't any new fans available since there's no more TV series.
ACTA might have survived longer had it been started when TV series was still on as they could have got larger fan base to start with but starting so much later means they had only tiny partion of original fan base to appeal for. And non-B5 fans aren't that likely interested in the project. And the longer it goes the less fans there are going to be and therefore less players and less new fans.
Death of B5 games was inevitable from the get-go regardless of how company does it.
Guys, take it outside.
we all have our opinions on GW, but slagging them off is asking to be modded.
we all have our opinions on Mongoose, but as stated it was, and really is a RPG company. they probably did the best they could within their budget on ACTA, and the lack of a future was ineviteable. how many S:AAB games do you see on the market, B5 has been off air far too long. Just blame it all on Triggys playtesting ;-)
we all have our opinions on GW, but slagging them off is asking to be modded.
we all have our opinions on Mongoose, but as stated it was, and really is a RPG company. they probably did the best they could within their budget on ACTA, and the lack of a future was ineviteable. how many S:AAB games do you see on the market, B5 has been off air far too long. Just blame it all on Triggys playtesting ;-)
Tankdriver
Banded Mongoose
Well, I for one am just sad to see it go. I have not played much recently, but I really enjoyed it and I really liked writing scenarios for S&P for A Call to Arms.
Oh well.
Hey, does this mean no more Ivanova at the MOngoose open houses.
Oh well.
Hey, does this mean no more Ivanova at the MOngoose open houses.
